RCAC Regimental flashes

[Voltigeur]

Bill, I value your input in this discussion and I'm sure you will bring some interesting points. I also like your style that is short and to the point (the motor bn. thing) My mastery of the english language does not permit me to elaborate on some topics as I wished.
Regards
Jo

[DavidS]

Interesting points and photos, Jo. I think the expression on the faces at the disbandment parade says it all.

I can appreciate your 'pick a point in time' classification, but if I did, I would certainly move my point in time to 1944 if for no other reason than the fact that the IV Princess Louise Dragoon Guards would be skipped if you use a 1945 Orbat. This recce regiment was keystone in Melfa River/Liri Valley breakout and, I believe, one VC was won during that action. Subsequently, they were dismounted and used as infantry in 5th Armoured Division in late 1944.

Personally, since I organize my collection by divisions, a lot of the RCAC 'also rans' like Halifax Rifles and Voltigeurs de Quebec aren't included in those categorizations. But even at that, I still wouldn't dismiss them as valid RCAC units during WW2.

Just to toss gas on the flames, picking up on Bill's comments, I would definitely categorize Canadian divisions as being 'at the whim' of higher-ups, and especially the British high command who didn't really want a 2nd Canadian division in Italy, and really didn't want additional Canadian tank brigades either (even though Leese was adamant about not returning 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade to Canadian command in 1944 because he considered it his best tank regiments).

[Bill A]

Hello David, Are there two different things here? The employment of an army, or corps in the field was (or at least appeared to be) at the "whim" of high priced help. They were, in many instances, responding to political masters, which in some cases actually hindered the military functions of the army. The Canadian army has to be an excellent example of such when one trys to understand why Canadians ended up in Hong Kong or Italy. These were political decisions about the use of forces in existence.

This is quite different from the composition of the division or regiments. The war establishment was not arbitrary. "Lessons learned" were studied in detail, especially after the debacle in France in 1940. This led to trying different war establisments within the regiments and divisions of the British / Canadian forces. How these units, once organized and trained, were then employed was subject to the whim of the higher ups.

Of course, this brings us back to the formation patches and badges, used to identify the components of the organization of the army. And, David, another interesting point in your posting. How do we display the badges and titles? At the CSMMI show in 2007, Tony Reintjes had his entire WW2 collection displayed by order of battle, including the army overseas and the army in Canada. As indicated this poses problems. The IV PLDG were 1st CID, then 5th CAD, then back to 1st CID. The Lanark & Renfrew Scottish didn't exist on the overseas orbat until the summer of 1944, and then disappeared again after the 1st Corps moved to NW Europe. The 1 CACR was created and served in the British 79th Armoured Division. How to display these is a collecting challenge. Picking a point in time is a great approach, but creates anomolies in the display, either leaving out units or including units that were only on the orbat for a short period of time.

Just an opinion here, but I really like the idea of a display of badges structured by a theme. This puts them in context. And the display can be themed in many ways. Eg, one approach for me is the chronological display of the units of northeastern Ontario, or as already suggested, regiments of the RCAC. This can be further "sub-organized" by time period, or operational vs reserve, etc. A drawer full of badges or titles arranged willy nilly in binders doesn't do much to explain the items that we collect.

[Voltigeur]

David, If I remember correctly the 4th PLDG reverted to armour with the 1st Div. when the 1st.Inf., the 5th. Arm'd* and the 1st. Arm'd Brig. were sent to Holland in March '45. As for the VC won, it was by Major J.K. Mahony of the Westminster Rgt.

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/s...tations/mahony

* An ad hoc 12th. Inf. Brig. had been formed in Italy to serve with the 5th Arm'd Div. with the 4PLDG, the Westminster Regt. and the Lanark and Renfrew Scottish Regt. (formed with surplus arty or's and some infantry reinforcements already in-theatre).

Cheers
Jo

[DavidS]

I don't know about you, but I'm really enjoying this. I'm also reminded that I shouldn't rely on memory (mine) before I type -- the recce unit I was thinking of was Perkins's Lord Strathconas at Melfa, which I had thought was PLDG. PLDG were in the meat grinder at Pontecorvo, amongst others, but not the engagement I was thinking of.

I think we've managed to move this beyond badge collecting, especially with respect to the politics of army management (or mismanagement as the case may be) and I'd love to sit down with you over a Boreal sometime to get your perspective. We definitely are talking about two -- if not more -- different things, but I guess any discussion about WW2 Canadian field deployment can't avoid that, with all the political meanderings of Mackenzie-King (esp. his conscription crisis paranoia, with zombie 'home defense' divisions sitting idle while field divisions bled white, Hong Kong as you say, and et ceteras til the cows come home), and many others along the way. I am the son of a D-Day Dodger, so for me, stories about 'the war' centered around Italy, and not that 'other part' that was rumoured to be going on at the same time elsewhere.

Anyway, back to badges and badge displays; I've opted basically for what you suggested for the 5 overseas divisions, the May 45 Orbat, with some modifications (duplication of PLDG in both 1st and 5th Divs, and the Westminsters in the 5th Div., to reflect reorganization, as I've arranged my badges by brigades within each division), as well as the army, corps and armoured brigade regiments at that time. As for the 6th, 7th and 8th Divisions, plus other home defense organizations, I use F.R. Tripps' orbats, which are as at highest strength in 1943. Corps badges are/will be framed separately, as will UTC badges. The best advice I got early on was 'don't try and put too many badges in a frame', so this divisional arrangements suite me, look good, and keep me busy in the workshop. I'll try and get some decent pics. of my framing and post those.

This of course leaves a whole swack of other things, especially since I moved from "Really, I'll just collect WW2 Canadian armoured corps badges" to anything and everything from 1920 to 1949, but at least I have lots of wall in my basement

[Voltigeur]

Well David, I do appreciate this discussion and Bill's input on organization vs employment and I guess someone else would come up with another argument or two on the subject. My view was to "keep it simple". A few years ago I did two frames, one Italy the second NW Europe to show the Canadian Army at it's best time of the war. My other concern at the time (early '80's) was money, I did not have too much of it and I had enough for the badges and not the titles (which at that time was a minefield). Also I only had the Stacey books for concrete informations. Badge collecting was begun as accessory to the histories I was reading.
So I suppose this is what happens when someone gets caught up in a subject that's dear to his heart.
So, until next time.
Regards
Jo

[Bill A]

Courtesy of Mark Tonner, I have attached the evolution and naming of the units of the Canadian Armoured Corps / Royal Canadian Armoured Corps during WW2. Note that each "Part" is basically in chronological order. This gives an excellent overview of the evolution of the armoured organization of the Canadian army and the naming of units. This takes into consideration the changes over time, so it reflects the regiments that were in the CAC at one time or another during the war. Note, units that were reserve only are not included.
In reference to collecting, shoulder titles in particular must reflect the actual designation of the unit at a point in time. So, for instance, the 12 Manitoba Dragoons went through several different designations during WW2, and the designations are reflected in the titles. See the thread on XII Manitoba Dragoons Shoulder Title.

Cavalry/Infantry Tank/Canadian Armoured Corps Units 1939 to 1946
The Components that were ‘Placed on Active Service’ and their Reserve Components


Part I - Cavalry Regiments (Horsed)

The Royal Canadian Dragoons, C.A.S.F.
Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians), C.A.S.F.
The Governor General's Horse Guards
4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards
1st Hussars
17th (Active) Duke of York's Royal Canadian Hussars
14th Canadian Hussars
The British Columbia Dragoons
The Fort Garry Horse, C.A.S.F.
The Prince Edward Island Light Horse

Part II - Cavalry Regiments (Mechanized)

8th Princess Louise's (New Brunswick) Hussars
7th/11th Hussars 7
1st Canadian Cavalry Regiment (Mechanized), C.A.C., C.A.S.F.

Part III - Cavalry Regiments (Armoured Car)

The Royal Canadian Dragoons (Armoured Car Regiment), C.A.S.F.
6th Duke of Connaught's Royal Canadian Hussars (Armoured Car)

Part IV - Cavalry Regiments (Motorcycle)

1st Canadian Motorcycle Regiment, C.A.S.F., (R.C.D./L.S.H. (R.C.))
2nd Canadian Motorcycle Regiment, C.A.S.F., (G.G.H.G.)
3rd Canadian Motorcycle Regiment, C.A.S.F., (17H.)
4th Canadian Motorcycle Regiment, C.A.S.F., (8 N.B.H.)
5th Canadian Motorcycle Regiment, C.A.S.F., (B.C.D.)

Part V - Infantry Tank Regiments

The Ontario Regiment (Tank), C.A.S.F.
The Three Rivers Regiment (Tank), C.A.S.F.
The Calgary Regiment (Tank)
The New Brunswick Regiment (Tank)

Part VI - Canadian Armoured Corps - Named Regiments

The Royal Canadian Dragoons (Armoured Car Regiment), C.A.C.
Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians), C.A.C.
The Governor General's Horse Guards, C.A.C.
4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards , C.A.C.
14th Canadian Hussars , C.A.C.
The Fort Garry Horse, C.A.C., C.A.S.F.
The Prince Edward Island Light Horse , C.A.C.
7th/11th Hussars , C.A.C.
6th Duke of Connaught's Royal Canadian Hussars (Armoured Car), C.A.C.
The Ontario Regiment (Tank), C.A.C., C.A.S.F.
The Three Rivers Regiment (Tank), C.A.C., C.A.S.F.
The Calgary Regiment (Tank), C.A.C.

Part VII - Canadian Armoured Corps - Numbered Battalions/Regiments

1st Armoured Car Regiment (Royal Canadian Dragoons)
2nd Armoured Regiment (Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians))
3rd Armoured Regiment (The Governor General's Horse Guards), C.A.C.
3rd Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment (The Governor General's Horse Guards), C.A.C.
4th Reconnaissance Battalion (4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards), C.A.C.
4th Reconnaissance Regiment (4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards), C.A.C.
5th Armoured Regiment (8th Princess Louise's (New Brunswick) Hussars)
6th Armoured Regiment (1st Hussars)
7th Reconnaissance Battalion (17th Duke of York's Royal Canadian Hussars), C.A.C.
7th Reconnaissance Regiment (17th Duke of York's Royal Canadian Hussars), C.A.C.
8th Reconnaissance Battalion (14th Canadian Hussars), C.A.C.
8th Reconnaissance Regiment (14th Canadian Hussars), C.A.C.
9th Armoured Regiment (The British Columbia Dragoons)
10th Armoured Regiment (The Fort Garry Horse)
11th Army Tank Battalion (The Ontario Regiment (Tank)), C.A.C.
11th Army Tank Regiment (The Ontario Regiment (Tank)), C.A.C.
11th Armoured Regiment (The Ontario Regiment), C.A.C.
12th Army Tank Battalion (The Three Rivers Regiment (Tank)), C.A.C.
12th Army Tank Regiment (Three Rivers Regiment (Tank)), C.A.C.
12th Armoured Regiment (Three Rivers Regiment), C.A.C.
14th Army Tank Battalion (The Calgary Regiment (Tank)), C.A.C.
14th Army Tank Regiment (The Calgary Regiment (Tank)), C.A.C.
14th Armoured Regiment (The Calgary Regiment), C.A.C.
18th (Manitoba) Reconnaissance Battalion, C.A.C.
18th (Manitoba) Armoured Car Regiment, C.A.C.
18th Armoured Car Regiment (12th Manitoba Dragoons), C.A.C.
20th Reconnaissance Battalion (16/22 Saskatchewan Horse)
20th Army Tank Battalion (16/22 Saskatchewan Horse), C.A.C.
20th Army Tank Regiment (16/22 Saskatchewan Horse), C.A.C.
21st Armoured Regiment (The Governor General's Foot Guards), C.A.C.
22nd Armoured Regiment (The Canadian Grenadier Guards), C.A.C.
23rd Army Tank Battalion (The Halifax Rifles), C.A.C.
23rd Army Tank Regiment (The Halifax Rifles), C.A.C.
24th Army Tank Battalion (Les Voltigeurs de Quebec), C.A.C.
24th Reconnaissance Battalion (Les Voltigeurs de Quebec), C.A.C.
24th Reconnaissance Regiment (Les Voltigeurs de Quebec), C.A.C.
25th Armoured Regiment (The Elgin Regiment), C.A.C.
25th Canadian Tank Delivery Regiment (The Elgin Regiment), C.A.C.
25th Armoured Delivery Regiment (The Elgin Regiment), C.A.C.
26th Army Tank Battalion (The Grey and Simcoe Foresters), C.A.C.
26th Army Tank Regiment (Grey and Simcoe Foresters), C.A.C.
27th Armoured Regiment (The Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment), C.A.C.
28th Armoured Regiment (The British Columbia Regiment), C.A.C.
29th Armoured Regiment (The South Alberta Regiment), C.A.C.
29th Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment (The South Alberta Regiment), C.A.C.
30th Reconnaissance Battalion (The Essex Regiment), C.A.C.
30th Reconnaissance Regiment (The Essex Regiment), C.A.C.
31st (Alberta) Reconnaissance Battalion, C.A.C.
31st (Alberta) Reconnaissance Regiment, C.A.C.
32nd Reconnaissance Regiment (Royal Montreal Regiment), C.A.C.

Part VIII - Canadian Armoured Corps - Headquarters Squadrons

5th Canadian (Armoured) Division Headquarters Squadron (6th Duke of Connaught's
Royal Canadian Hussars)
2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade Headquarters Squadron (7th/11th Hussars)
1st Canadian Armoured Brigade Headquarters Squadron (The Prince Edward Island
Light Horse)
1st Canadian Army Tank Brigade Headquarters Squadron (The New Brunswick Regiment
(Tank)), C.A.C.

Part IX - Armoured Car and Armoured Regiments - The Canadian Army (Active)(Interim Force)
and The Canadian Army (Active Force)
2nd-1st Armoured Car Regiment (The Royal Canadian Dragoons),

R.C. Armd. C.
2nd-1st Armoured Regiment (The Royal Canadian Dragoons),

R.C. Armd. C.
1st Armoured Regiment (The Royal Canadian Dragoons),

R.C.A.C. (The Canadian Army (Active)(Interim Force))
1st Armoured Regiment (The Royal Canadian Dragoons),

R.C.A.C. (The Canadian Army (Active Force))
2nd-2nd Armoured Regiment (Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians)),

R.C. Armd. C.
2nd Armoured Regiment (Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians)),

R.C.A.C. (The Canadian Army (Active)(Interim Force))
2nd Armoured Regiment (Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians)),

R.C.A.C. (The Canadian Army (Active Force))

Part X - Canadian Armoured Corps - Canadian Army Pacific Force

6th Canadian Infantry Division Reconnaissance Troop (The Royal Montreal Regiment), C.A.C.
22nd Canadian Tank Battalion (The Canadian Grenadier Guards), C.A.C.

Part XI - Canadian Armoured Corps - Canadian Army Occupation Force

2nd 7th Reconnaissance Regiment, C.A.C.

Part XII - Cavalry Regiment - Infantry Tank Regiment ‘Details’

The Governor General's Horse Guards (Details)
17th Duke of York's Royal Canadian Hussars (Details)
The British Columbia Dragoons (Details)
The Calgary Regiment (Tank) (Details)
The New Brunswick Regiment (Tank) (Details)

[Voltigeur]

BRAVO Bill, a first-class job,well done.
Regards.
Jo

[Bill A]

Thanks Jo, but the real thanks must go to Mark Tonner. He has a wealth of information on the Canadian army, and is willing to share it.

[fearnaught]

Hi, brilliant!! With regards to the displaying of cloth, I collect armour but have a large collection of printed titles so wanted to display both the army and the armoured regiments,my solution was to use a high quality photo-copier and put copies in the army display. These, when under plastic, are virtually indistinguishable from the real thing. Also it represents a great saving even if you could find some of these titles. Secondly you describe the Canadian Grenadier Guards in the 6th div. I have them in the 4th arm. div. When did they move? Really enjoying this thread

[fearnaught]

Hi, More. What does part X11 mean by "details"? Also did all regiments have reserve regiments and did they all have the black on khaki slip-ons?

[slick_mick]

Thanks also guys - some great info there.

Mick

[Bill A]

fearnaught (Mike), The CGG were in the 4th CAD, and identified as the armoured battalion for the Canadian Army Pacific Force 6th Division. (There were two "6th" Divisions in the Canadian army during WW2. The first was a home defence division, and the second one was the division formed for the war against Japan. It was in the process of being created when the atomic bombs ended the war in the Pacific.)
Details are small components of the regiments, eg a squadron or even smaller. I am not sure how the "details" were deployed or employed. More research needed on these units.
The RCD and the LdSH did not have reserve components. All regiments, with one exception had the worsted black on khaki slip-ons. The armoured unit for which no slip-on exists is the 1 Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment.

[DavidS]

Anecdotal tangent here: my dad was in Holland in 1945 and he volunteered for the Pacific division. As he put it, "we figured out that the war in the East would be over before we ever got there, and it would get us home sooner." According to him, the Pacific force volunteers were shipped back to Canada almost immediately for leave and training, and the remainder of his unit twiddled their thumbs overseas for a few more months.

[Bill A]

Which they did. Good call on your dad's part.