Rare?? CEF Artillery Collar Badge - McGill University Siege Battery - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

2747andy · #1 13-06-10, 09:30 AM

One for the Canadian Artillery experts:

How scarce, if at all is this Gilding metal McGill University (Montreal) Siege Battery "Overseas".. I understand this unit were the only Siege battery allowed to wear their own badge outside of Canada?

Any ideas on value too?

Many thanks

Andy

Bill A · #2 13-06-10, 11:59 AM

Hello Andy, All of the sub-unit Canadian artillery badges are difficult to find. Unfortunately, as has been previously discussed on the Forum, there has been significant forgery activity in the CFA and other Canadian artillery units. Having said this, your example appears to be a good example.
6th McGill Seige Battery was formed from undergrads and grads of McGill U in Montreal, and proceded overseas. In the UK it was redesignated the 271st (Canadian) Seige Battery, and again redesignated No 7 Canadian Seige Battery. This unit served in France and Flanders from March of 1917 unti April of 1919. My understanding was that the unit switched to the standard Canada banner field gun pattern badge after the redesignation. There was also a McGill Siege Battery draught which was sent overseas, and was badged with the McGill Siege Battery badges.
A handful of other Canadian Siege Batteries had unique badges. These include the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 9th and 10th. These badges are quite scarce, and were not likely worn once overseas, probably being replaced by the field gun badge with Canada scroll. Their records are sparse.
The impact of the forgery of Canadian artillery badges has made valuations hard to establish. I would suggest a value of approx $80 - $100 for the collar.

2747andy · #3 13-06-10, 02:18 PM

Bill,
thanks for the info, very useful, the collar is 100% Genuine and in superb condition (another from my recently accquired WW1 collection of badges) it has had very little wear if any..

Cox states "McGill Siege Battery was an exception to the order that the badges of Seige Batteries should not be worn outside of Canada" note the "Overseas" on the ground below the gun's wheel.

Alas, as I am not a collector of Collar badges or Canadian items, it is destined for Ebay!!

Andy

Bill A · #4 13-06-10, 02:44 PM

Hi Andy, While Cox is an excellent reference, he had some poor information about the Canadian artillery badges. The badges for the other siege batteries mentioned in my first post also included "overseas" in part of the inscriptions on the badge. (There is also a badge for the 3rd without "overseas" in the inscription.) According to Joe Harper's A Source of Pride, the badges for No3, No 6 (McGill) and No 10 Seige Batteries were approved patterns, but Joe doesn't indicate if they were worn overseas. He does indicates that in August of 1917 Seige Batteries "in the field" were wearing the Canada banner field gun badge, and general service collars. No 7 may have continued to wear the McGill badge, but it has not been confirmed or rejected. Further, Joe quotes a memo in October of 1917 stating that the Canadian artillery were wearing either the field gun pattern with Canada scroll.

2747andy · #5 13-06-10, 02:50 PM

Bill,
I have a feeling that the collection I got was put together during or immeadiately post WW1, perhaps this was an unworn collar donated to the original collector?

Andy

Bill A · #6 13-06-10, 08:11 PM

Hi Andy, A lot of CEF badges were worn overseas, and then when men were remustered into fighting units in the UK, they were rebadged. This was the practice for most of the infantry battalions, and many of the artillery units. They proceeded overseas with the badge of the unit they were sent with and then were issued badges for the unit they went to the Front with.
So, I think your thoughts on the collar have a fair bit of substance. It is likely they were worn overseas, but then removed from use.

DavidS · #7 13-06-10, 09:31 PM

Chris Brooker prices this particular collar at $125 US in his COTC book. That's probably top-end pricing.

2747andy · #8 13-06-10, 10:49 PM

Thanks David and Bill,
should make it an interesting listing!!

Andy

Seathanaich · #9 08-08-14, 03:59 AM

I have a very well made badge in nice metal for this battery. I bought it at least 20 years ago, for not that much; but I think it's authentic. It's a right collar, not a left one, with what should be an officer's jeweller pin on the back. I'd think a sweetheart would be based on a left collar.

If it isn't authentic, I'd like to know; I don't have enough money or interest to attempt a large collection of CEF battery badges. However, I don't mind an authentic example of one . . .

manchesters · #10 08-08-14, 06:02 AM

The badge is genuine, and to my knowledge I have not seen the collar badges reproduced, like the cap badges have.

Originally it would have had 2 loops, the brooch being fitted later.

regards

Seathanaich · #11 10-08-14, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchesters

The badge is genuine, and to my knowledge I have not seen the collar badges reproduced, like the cap badges have. Originally it would have had 2 loops, the brooch being fitted later. regards

Thanks Simon. The fact it's a collar, the fact that it's the right collar, the fact it has a good quality jewellers pin back, and the quality of the badge all had me fairly convinced it was authentic.

I don't understand why anyone would remove lugs and attach a jeweller's clasp - lugged badges stay firmly in place on think jacket collars, and clasps are weaker, more "fiddly", and apt to prick you. I get that a CEF soldier would launder his tunic every rotation to the rear, but lugs are no impediment to that, in my experience. I would never want an inch long pin on my uniform - even my parade uniform - just waiting to spear me if I fell on it, when the alternative was lugs. The only reason I can see having them is if you take a broken badge to a jeweller for repair, and that's his solution.

whizzbang · #12 11-08-14, 01:13 AM

Hi Drew,

It was quite common to replace the lugs with a pin on collar badges to make a sweetheart badge - or even post-war to make a lapel badge.

Cheers, Ian.

Seathanaich · #13 11-08-14, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whizzbang

Hi Drew, It was quite common to replace the lugs with a pin on collar badges to make a sweetheart badge - or even post-war to make a lapel badge. Cheers, Ian.

Yes, I should have added that to the list of "whys". Can't have your girl walking around in Khaki battledress!