Royal Dublin Fusiliers buttons and makers

[phaethon]

Hi all,

Here is beginning of my Royal Dublin Fusiliers button collection. Any info of the makers, different periods and models would be great because I am just in the start and do not know much.
Basically my main source so far is only "Crown and Company 1911-1922 nd Battalion Royal Dublin Fusiliers" book pictures on the back.
My ultimate task of course would be to own an officer's waistcoat button examples one day. If any of you have came accross of these, please let me know

Here you go the items, what I have so far:

1. Armfield Ltd., Birmingham. small button, made around 1902-1922.

[phaethon]

2. Hobson & Sons, Lexington Street, London W. (established 1850). Small RDF button made around 1902-1922. Looks like well worn.

[phaethon]

One of my favorite pieces.

3. An officer's shoulder board fixing button with the screw post. No maker marks. Made around 1902-1922.

[phaethon]

4. Large gilt tunic button from Jennens & Co, London. Made around 1881-1902.



5. Large gilt tunic button from Jennens & Co, London. Made around 1902-1922.

[phaethon]

6. Bronzed buttons for wear in service dress from c. 1902 - 1922. Service dress bronzed buttons were introduced 1902.

Text on the back "Special Quality"



7. From Irish maker "Henecy & Sons", Dublin

[connaught]

Hi Timo, have alook at this site.
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/pages/button-makers.html#anchora

[phaethon]

Thanks connaught!

I updated some of the details above. Still looking extra info regards of periods, etc.

Here is one another good makers list, what I found during my ongoing researches:

http://www.buttoncrs.com/backmarks.html

[John Mulcahy]

Timmo

I never realized that there were so many different makers of RDF Regimental pattern buttons, thanks for posting.

It is going to be near impossible to assign specific periods of wear to individual button makers, especially in a relatively narrow time period of 1881 - c. 1902 for the QVC pattern and c. 1902 - 1922 for the KC (Tudor) crown versions. Essentially all could have been worn at any point within the time period. If you were to find regimental or manufacturers records of the orders for such buttons you might be able to narrow down the history of these buttons further, I do not know of any such records.

Apologies if I am writing anything obvious that you already know, I am not trying to be patronizing.

Firstly remember that only Officers were officially authorized regimental pattern buttons in line Infantry Regiments, which they bought privately making sure that they conformed to the approved pattern. The War Office approved the patterns and provided "sealed patterns" but they did not manage the manufacture and supply of these buttons.

From 1872 the button issued to other ranks in line infantry regiments was the general service button. This continued to be the issued button until 1924 when regimental pattern buttons were authorized for all ranks. Thus, the RDF ORs were issued with the general service button, however, it is common to find GM versions of a regimental design button (rather than the obvious gilt officers versions), and it is probable that these were private purchase items possibly for wear by senior NCOs. This practice of private purchase regimental buttons for NCOs was widespread at the time.

This detail is important because it means that there are no sealing details for these regimental pattern buttons in the Royal Army Clothing Department's list of changes in the National Archives. So unless one can find the dates relating to Officers items or regimental private purchase items it is very difficult to put exact dates on the period of wear.

The QVC crown is actually the one in the image that you labeled number 4. This is the device that would have been used when the buttons were first designed and used c. 1881 - 1882 (it is difficult to be 100% precise). As to when it changed over to the KC version, that too is difficult to know. One can hazard a guess however by using the example of cavalry regiments. They, unlike Infantry regiments were authorized regimental pattern buttons for rank and file and the 5th Royal Irish Lancers had KC pattern buttons sealed in 1902. However sometimes it took longer, for example the 8th Kings Royal Irish Hussars only had a KC version of their cap badge sealed in 1904. So I think the best one can say at the moment is that the KC button would have been worn from approx c. 1902 to disbandment in 1922.


So my best guess at your buttons is

no1. worn c. 1902 - 1922
no2. worn c. 1902 - 1922
no3. worn c. 1902-1922, I suggest you clean it to prevent degradation of the metal (search for cleaning methods on this forum)
no4. worn c. 1881 - c. 1902
no 5. worn c. 1902 - 1922
no. 6 & 7. These appear to be bronzed buttons for wear in service dress (the others being gilt or gm for full dress, undress etc.) and date from c. 1902 - 1922. Service dress with bronzed buttons and badges was introduced in 1902.

If anyone sees mistakes in what I have posted feel free to correct.

John

[phaethon]

Hi John,

Apologies if I am writing anything obvious that you already know, I am not trying to be patronizing.

Oh, not at all - I don't know almost NOTHING about the buttons, insignia and regulations, so any information and main educational posts are gold mine to me and my studies! Thank you for that!

The QVC crown is actually the one in the image that you labeled number 4.

Prefect! I still trying to find a good slides to determinate a periods based on British crowns! I some how got inorrect answer, using for a source pictures on wikipedia this morning.

I will make a changes above now regards of that.

So my best guess at your buttons is

no1. worn c. 1902 - 1922
no2. worn c. 1902 - 1922
no3. worn c. 1902-1922, I suggest you clean it to prevent degradation of the metal (search for cleaning methods on this forum)
no4. worn c. 1881 - c. 1902
no 5. worn c. 1902 - 1922
no. 6 & 7. These apepar to be bronzed buttons for wear in service dress (the others being gilt or gm for full dress, undress etc.) and date from c. 1902 - 1922. Service dress with bronzed buttons and badges was introduced in 1902

Thank you for that. I am planning to put together a seprate display for RDF buttons and this kind a periods would be prefect to add under each of the button

Thanks again!

[phaethon]

Today's arrival

8. Large gilt tunic button from Pitt & Co, 31 Maddox st, London (31 Maddox Street London W). Made around 1902-1922.

[Toby Purcell]

A great collection. I particularly like the "Special Quality" example which (unsurprisingly) has a very fine striking indeed, although the Jennens button too is very good.

[phaethon]

Large Gaunt & Son Ltd. 1902-1922

[phaethon]

Something slightly different!

Sherlock & Co., London large Royal Dublin Militia (4th Royal Dublin Fusiliers) officer's silver gilded button

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by phaethon

Something slightly different!

Sherlock & Co., London large Royal Dublin Militia (4th Royal Dublin Fusiliers) officer's silver gilded button

Superb button and I am curious about the silver gilding. Volunteer battalions had always worn silver appointments/insignia but Militia had usually been gilding metal/brass - the same as regulars. Perhaps the regiment had some unique, or rare distinction authorising silvered insignia.

[phaethon]

Thanks Toby! It is surelly interesting one and I would be delighted to learn more. Oh, their cap badge was silver or white metal as well, with the same motive - shamrocks, crown, text "The Queen's Own*Royal Regiment" and Dublin City castles in the centre".

Here is one very well worn Stillwell & Son, London large button, 1902-1922