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  #1  
Old 17-02-11, 06:18 PM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Default What does “NZMGS” stand for??????

My guess is that most NZ badge collectors on this forum know the answer to the question, as it is mentioned on page 79 (#12/64) of Geoff Oldham’s 1997 badge price guide.



“NZMGS” = “New Zealand Machine Gun Section.”

Unfortunately not everybody has Geoff’s book, which has led to some confusion as to what the “S” in NZMGS stands for.
I know one person who thinks that the “S” stands for “Specialists,” and he has met others who suggest that it stands for “Signallers.”
Another person suggests that it represents “Squadron.”

Admittedly, both Geoff and Dave Corbett’s badge books contain some mistakes, but the few paragraphs that relate to the NZMGS and Specialist Company are in my opinion correct.

Worthy of debate???? I think so, and am only too happy to play Devil’s advocate representing the “New Zealand Machine Gun Section.”
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  #2  
Old 17-02-11, 06:21 PM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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To start the ball rolling, although British “Machine-Gun Sections” date back to the Boer war, I would like to begin with the NZ Territorial Defence Scheme that was introduced in May 1910.

Under the 1910 Defence Scheme, the Machine-Gun Section became an integral part of each Mounted Rifle Regiment and Infantry Battalion.
The Machine-Gun Section of a Mounted Rifle Regiment consisted of one subaltern, one sergeant, and 11 rank and file. (One gun and 18 horses)
The Machine-Gun Section of an Infantry Battalion consisted of one officer, one warrant officer, and nine rank and file.

After the Gallipoli campaign the NZEF Machine-Gun Sections were used to form the nucleus of the NZ Machine Gun Corps (forming 3 MG Companies in January 1916, and one Mounted MG Squadron formed July 1916)
Officers and men were sent from the battalions and regiments to a machine gun school that had been established in Cairo under the command of Major F. L. Pardoe, an officer who is mentioned of having a wide study experience in the machine gun and its tactics.

Up until the formation of the NZMGC the Infantry Machine-Gun Sections wore the standard NZR shoulder titles.
The first shoulder titles worn by the three companies of the NZ Machine Gun Corps were brass with “NZ” at the top, Company number (1, 2 or 3) in the middle, and “MGC” at the bottom. (These shoulder titles were replaced by the NZMG shoulder title)




So far I have only seen photos of NZMG Squadron members wearing NZMR shoulder titles. I would be very interested if anyone has a photo of their squadron patch being worn or a different shoulder title to NZMR????

To supply specially trained reinforcements to the NZMGC and the NZ Signal Corps, a “Specialist Company” was formed at Featherston camp. The Specialist Company, consisted of two sections which trained in cooperation, comprising of a “Specialist Machine-Gun Section” and a “Specialist Signal Section.” (Originally called the Specialist Signalling Company)

The formation of the Specialist Company can be traced to the 13th Reinforcements, of which a number of men along with men from the 14th Reinforcements were transferred into the 15th Reinforcements Specialist Machine-Gun Section. (It can get a bit confusing with 4 different reinforcement drafts in camp at the same time)

Although a Machine-Gun Section attached to the Mounted Rifles Brigade embarked with the 13th Reinforcements, the 15th Reinforcements Specialist Machine-Gun Section was the first reinforcement draft to receive special instruction, and were given five months training before they departed New Zealand. (A month more than other reinforcements)
However, the new Lewis gun and Vickers gun did not arrive in time for the 15th SMGS to receive their full course of instruction on. (These did arrive in time for the 16th Reinforcements Specialist Machine-Gun Section to train with)

At this time, Captain Fraser was the Featherston Camp Machine Gun Instructor (Under the supervision of Major Neave, Chief Musketry Instructor at Featherston Camp)

The NZ Defence records from August 1916 to December 1916 list all the shoulder titles that were purchased and issued by the NZ Defence Department. An example of a typical document is included below. It shows the NZR, NZE, NZMR and NZP&T shoulder titles that were issued to the Specialist Signal Section. This and the other copies of shoulder title documents that I have DO NOT SHOW the NZMGS shoulder title.



The document in itself does not prove what NZMGS stand for, but it does prove that the NZMGS badges were not Government Issue and that they were privately purchased. They possibly may have been paid for from a Corps fund, the money coming from the Machine-Gun Sections camp canteen profits, as this was common practice within the NZ Reinforcement camps.
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  #3  
Old 17-02-11, 06:28 PM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Prior to the adoption of the Specialist reinforcement badges, machine gun reinforcements wore the same reinforcement badges as the Infantry, sometimes with the letters “MG” in centre position.

First pattern Specialist Company badges. (Produced in brass, bronze and silver, although I have yet to see a bronze version)



Second pattern Specialist Company badge. (Produced only in cap badge size in brass and silver)




Third Pattern Specialist Company badges. (Produced in brass, brass with silver machinegun, bronze and silver machinegun worn by officers, and silver)



All three Specialists pattern cap badges were worn with the first and third pattern collar badges as well as other generic reinforcement collar badges.

The Specialist Company badges were worn up until the 33rd Reinforcements, from the 34th Reinforcements onwards, the Specialist Machine-Gun Section reinforcements more commonly wore the ‘Stubby barrel’ crossed machine gun cap and collar badges. (These were worn with the NZMGS shoulder title)

The following arrived in my mailbox today, it is a rare NZ Specialist Machine-Gun Section reinforcement qualification badge, these were usually worn on the left arm, but I do have photos showing these being worn on the right arm.



Lance Sergeant Hereward Regenald Ludbrook, Service No. 54667, 33rd Reinforcements Specialist Company, Embarkation Date: 31 December 1917. (Died of wounds France 8th September 1918)
Sergeant Ludbrook is wearing Third pattern Specialist collar badges and a Reinforcement Machine Gun qualification arm badge.

Last edited by atillathenunns; 23-06-11 at 12:15 PM.
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  #4  
Old 17-02-11, 08:17 PM
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Tinto Tinto is offline
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Good work, Brent! I'm pleased you got the cloth arm badge, not many of them around. I agree, the S is for Section.
Cheers, Tinto
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  #5  
Old 02-05-19, 04:27 PM
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CAM CAM is offline
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Default NZMGS

I know it is an old post but lovely badges. Do you have an album?

Chris

Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
Prior to the adoption of the Specialist reinforcement badges, machine gun reinforcements wore the same reinforcement badges as the Infantry, sometimes with the letters “MG” in centre position.

First pattern Specialist Company badges. (Produced in brass, bronze and silver, although I have yet to see a bronze version)



Second pattern Specialist Company badge. (Produced only in cap badge size in brass and silver)




Third Pattern Specialist Company badges. (Produced in brass, brass with silver machinegun, bronze and silver machinegun worn by officers, and silver)



All three Specialists pattern cap badges were worn with the first and third pattern collar badges as well as other generic reinforcement collar badges.

The Specialist Company badges were worn up until the 33rd Reinforcements, from the 34th Reinforcements onwards, the Specialist Machine-Gun Section reinforcements more commonly wore the ‘Stubby barrel’ crossed machine gun cap and collar badges. (These were worn with the NZMGS shoulder title)

The following arrived in my mailbox today, it is a rare NZ Specialist Machine-Gun Section reinforcement qualification badge, these were usually worn on the left arm, but I do have photos showing these being worn on the right arm.



Lance Sergeant Hereward Regenald Ludbrook, Service No. 54667, 33rd Reinforcements Specialist Company, Embarkation Date: 31 December 1917. (Died of wounds France 8th September 1918)
Sergeant Ludbrook is wearing Third pattern Specialist collar badges and a Reinforcement Machine Gun qualification arm badge.
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  #6  
Old 03-05-19, 07:51 AM
NZEF NZEF is offline
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Selection of differant NZMGC patches.
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  #7  
Old 05-05-19, 06:57 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NZEF View Post
Selection of differant NZMGC patches.
Hi Lee, thank you for posting these, its only when you get to see a number of different collections that you can see the types of variations that exist.

This one just arrived in the mail box on Friday, it was another purchase off Ebay and came out of Canada and was being sold as a "New Zealand, Machine Gun Corps Headquarters Cloth Formation Flash."



It is of course not a NZMGC star patch, but it is a No.4 NZ Light Trench Mortar Batteries patch, which I am missing from my collection.
The only concerns that I had when purchasing it was its size as the circle only measured 1 and a 1/2 inches across, and the black felt square measured 1 and 3/4 inches square.
So it is slightly smaller to my other 3 patches as can be seen below.



The Regulations (No.416) however are pretty precise when it come to dimensions as can be seen below.



Now it could be said that it is just coincidence that it looks like a New Zealand WW1 patch, and may be a Canadian boy scout patch for all we know.
However the material the patch is made from is an exact match to others that are in my collection.
Also at the last meeting of the Wellington Militaria Collectors Club another member turned up with the following patches which also came out of Canada, and the NZMGC stars as well the other NZLTM patches also measure at 1 and 3/4 inches square.



However I do have a credible answer as to why these miniature patches exist, and will post further on the subject.
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  #8  
Old 05-05-19, 06:16 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAM View Post
I know it is an old post but lovely badges. Do you have an album?

Chris
Hi Chris, sorry I do not have an album.

Brent
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  #9  
Old 18-02-11, 04:15 AM
martin gregory
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Wink whoahhh!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
To start the ball rolling, although British “Machine-Gun Sections” date back to the Boer war, I would like to begin with the NZ Territorial Defence Scheme that was introduced in May 1910.

Under the 1910 Defence Scheme, the Machine-Gun Section became an integral part of each Mounted Rifle Regiment and Infantry Battalion.
The Machine-Gun Section of a Mounted Rifle Regiment consisted of one subaltern, one sergeant, and 11 rank and file. (One gun and 18 horses)
The Machine-Gun Section of an Infantry Battalion consisted of one officer, one warrant officer, and nine rank and file.

After the Gallipoli campaign the NZEF Machine-Gun Sections were used to form the nucleus of the NZ Machine Gun Corps (forming 3 MG Companies in January 1916, and one Mounted MG Squadron formed July 1916)
Officers and men were sent from the battalions and regiments to a machine gun school that had been established in Cairo under the command of Major F. L. Pardoe, an officer who is mentioned of having a wide study experience in the machine gun and its tactics.

Up until the formation of the NZMGC the Infantry Machine-Gun Sections wore the standard NZR shoulder titles.
The first shoulder titles worn by the three companies of the NZ Machine Gun Corps were brass with “NZ” at the top, Company number (1, 2 or 3) in the middle, and “MGC” at the bottom. (These shoulder titles were replaced by the NZMG shoulder title)




So far I have only seen photos of NZMG Squadron members wearing NZMR shoulder titles. I would be very interested if anyone has a photo of their squadron patch being worn or a different shoulder title to NZMR????

To supply specially trained reinforcements to the NZMGC and the NZ Signal Corps, a “Specialist Company” was formed at Featherston camp. The Specialist Company, consisted of two sections which trained in cooperation, comprising of a “Specialist Machine-Gun Section” and a “Specialist Signal Section.” (Originally called the Specialist Signalling Company)

The formation of the Specialist Company can be traced to the 13th Reinforcements, of which a number of men along with men from the 14th Reinforcements were transferred into the 15th Reinforcements Specialist Machine-Gun Section. (It can get a bit confusing with 4 different reinforcement drafts in camp at the same time)

Although a Machine-Gun Section attached to the Mounted Rifles Brigade embarked with the 13th Reinforcements, the 15th Reinforcements Specialist Machine-Gun Section was the first reinforcement draft to receive special instruction, and were given five months training before they departed New Zealand. (A month more than other reinforcements)
However, the new Lewis gun and Vickers gun did not arrive in time for the 15th SMGS to receive their full course of instruction on. (These did arrive in time for the 16th Reinforcements Specialist Machine-Gun Section to train with)

At this time, Captain Fraser was the Featherston Camp Machine Gun Instructor (Under the supervision of Major Neave, Chief Musketry Instructor at Featherston Camp)

The NZ Defence records from August 1916 to December 1916 list all the shoulder titles that were purchased and issued by the NZ Defence Department. An example of a typical document is included below. It shows the NZR, NZE, NZMR and NZP&T shoulder titles that were issued to the Specialist Signal Section. This and the other copies of shoulder title documents that I have DO NOT SHOW the NZMGS shoulder title.



The document in itself does not prove what NZMGS stand for, but it does prove that the NZMGS badges were not Government Issue and that they were privately purchased. They possibly may have been paid for from a Corps fund, the money coming from the Machine-Gun Sections camp canteen profits, as this was common practice within the NZ Reinforcement camps.
new zealand machine gun section surely
the gaunt document is a top!
i can happily lap this up again
that is the most information ever!
how do you know all that ...fantastic ... everyone else is eating cornball or what
only vic gough like you in the north east
and the kiwis come out top in all actions, the book i just read again popski raves about them and you know its true of them lads that served then went home. thank you, it had to be defended, but a waste of life
badges
b, brandy
regards, martin
that
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  #10  
Old 18-02-11, 04:24 AM
martin gregory
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£965! 1916
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  #11  
Old 18-02-11, 08:05 AM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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"S" for Section or Specialists?

Section seems a rather small unit to have it's own title??

Just a thought!

Andy
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  #12  
Old 18-02-11, 08:45 AM
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also a few bi-metal examples including this one.I have been told that their is a bi-metal flat ferns variety ,very rare.
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