infantry officer's Torin cap

[KLR]

I've just seen a photograph of an officer wearing this hat / cap with a badge that I thought might be anywhere between 1894 to 1926.

Can any one please tell me the floruit of this headgear ?? A terminus post quem would be very useful in dating the badge.

thanks
J

[manchesters]

Julian,

Thats too hard for me I'm afraid, I am just a poor Northern peasant.

Could you translate please.

"Can any one please tell me the floruit of this headgear ?? A terminus post quem would be very useful in dating the badge."

regards

[grenadierguardsman]

Same here.....
Andy

[Alan O]

Both of you are in the bottom set of the Latin class.

Floruit: VERB
used in conjunction with a specified period or set of dates to indicate when a particular historical figure lived, worked, or was most active.

terminus post quem
NOUN
the earliest possible date for something.

[Alan O]

The dates will depend on the regiment. Most officers ceased to wear them circa 1896 when the replaced them with the FSC.

[KLR]

Oh dear, sorry, I was still wearing my museum hat.


Yes, I wanted to know when it was worn - it looks as though cavalry officers wore the Torin up to the 1920s and infantry officers appear to have taken it up again in the ???1950s.

Anyway, if i knew the latest date of its wear (in the late 19th c), then I would know when that particular badge appeared.

Thank you Alan, I had a period of 1894-6 in mind too !

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by KLR

I've just seen a photograph of an officer wearing this hat / cap with a badge that I thought might be anywhere between 1894 to 1926.

Can any one please tell me the floruit of this headgear ?? A terminus post quem would be very useful in dating the badge.

thanks
J

The photo would help, if only to see it.

[Alan O]

Kings Regiment (Liverpool and Manchaesters) and now the Duke of Lancasters officers still wear it with barrack dress.

Alan

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Both of you are in the bottom set of the Latin class.

Floruit: VERB
used in conjunction with a specified period or set of dates to indicate when a particular historical figure lived, worked, or was most active.

terminus post quem
NOUN
the earliest possible date for something.

Andy

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi Julian
The questions you raised re the origins of the Infantry "Torin" cap are, to say the least, problematical as the following illustrations I have dug up would indicate :
It would appear that the earliest version of this undress headwear was adopted by the Royal Marines in the early 1800's … if this first image of unknown origin is to be believed. (note this is being worn by an OR).
Certainly, by c.1837, this contemporary painting by Augustus Earle shows an officer wearing such a headdress .. altho' it was then referred to simply as a "Field Service Cap".
The next illustration from Punch (13th May 1854) lampoons the new headdress now adopted by the Guards and called the "Albert Bonnet".
Just exactly when these were finally dubbed the "Torin cap" is still a mystery to me at least, and I would be grateful to anyone who can enlighten me.
The practice of wearing this cap by the remainder of the Infantry (and Cavalry) seems to have been sporadic and gradual from the late 1870's and indeed from various photos I have seen, was often mixed with both the Glengarry and the Austrian Field Service cap in a most unusual and casual manner. Similarly with the badges which were not always worn on the cap and were often derived from collar badges. Regards Jeff

R.N Gun crew Torin c.1812 cp.jpg Field Service Cap the Torin c.1837.jpg Guards Albert Cap Punch 1854.jpg

[matti467]

Terminus post quem
Retminus ante quem

Like Julian I found myself reading Archaeology at uni and this was one of the first things we learned.

I was taught by the late Mr May MA BA (Oxon)
He was a brilliant linguist who had served his National Service in the RAF at Gatow. He spoke Russian, Czech etc.
The RAF Regiment on the airfield perimeter had to hold the Russians for 5 minutes so they could destroy all the papers and machines in the listening rooms.

Time after which
Time before which

[Lancer 17]

Going back a while we had a thread on the use of abbreviations but that didn't seem to get much traffic, now we are having to deal with over qualified/ educated people who have forgotten how to speak in English, remember most of the members on the forum speak English not Latin, which is a dying / dead language.

Please speak English for the benefit of all of us / most of us who don't speak Latin.

Thanks guys

Phil.

[cbuehler]

Quo fata vocant; the fates have brought us here even though the badges of our study are not always in English.

CB

[leigh kitchen]

Originally Posted by cbuehler

Quo fata vocant; the fates have brought us here even though the badges of our study are not always in English.

CB

My "favourite" motto - not exclusive to, but that of the old "Fighting Fifth".

[Lancer 17]

Hi Guys

I prefer "The Motto" !!

Regards Phil.