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  #1  
Old 02-08-10, 11:36 AM
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Default REME Appointment CASM

This weekend was the Arborfield Old Boys reunion, great weekend, but I digress. In attendance was the REME CASM (Corps Artificer Sergeant Major), a recent appointment to be a link between DEME(A) and the Corps on the ground. I noticed his badge as one I had not seen before, and he told me that there is now a similar appointment within all the Corps of the army and that this is the badge they will wear. Pity the 'Hammer & Tongs' don't match! The needlework leaves a little to be desired also!
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  #2  
Old 03-08-10, 12:05 AM
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Joihn,

So the rank would be Corps Sergeant Major?

John
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  #3  
Old 03-08-10, 07:47 AM
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Joihn,

So the rank would be Corps Sergeant Major?

John
The title is actually Corps RSM and the individual is ranked as the most senior RSM/WO1 in the Corps for which he or she holds the appointment. My brother was the Corps RSM of the Royal Signals a few years back (although I don't think that he wore any special pattern of rank badge at that time)

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  #4  
Old 03-08-10, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
So the rank would be Corps Sergeant Major?
Hi John
No. His RANK is Warrant Officer Class 1. His APPOINTMENT is CASM.
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  #5  
Old 03-08-10, 08:04 AM
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From the late 1970s the Corps RSM of the Intelligence Corps wore a Bullion on Cypress Green Number 1 Dress WO1 rank badge on Number 2 Dress and the Jersey Heavy Wool.
An example in my album:
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=12220

The new Corps RSM badges seem to be of a universal standard pattern and are designed for the recently introduced Future Army Dress (FAD) which will replace Number 2 Dress and Officers' Service Dress with a standard design and darker shade of khaki (or so the MOD has planned!!!)
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Old 03-08-10, 09:24 AM
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The badge of rank for the Senior WOI of each Corps was designed and authorised in January 2005. However it was left to the Corps to decide if it would be used, there was to be no Corps distinctions, however that was soon forgotten. Most of the badges are produced in a far of land through one company. The decision to have the badge sealed and given an NSN is waiting to be made. Therefor each user purchases the badges or their respective Corps does.

The first one came out of Germany before the final design was authorised, the second is an example of othose now in use.
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  #7  
Old 03-08-10, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
The title is actually Corps RSM and the individual is ranked as the most senior RSM/WO1 in the Corps for which he or she holds the appointment.
In REME the appointment of Corps RSM has been replaced by the Corps ASM, and I'm not sure when this took effect. I have no knowledge as to the current situation within the other Corps.
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  #8  
Old 03-08-10, 01:51 PM
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Default CORPS WO 1

To be a R.S.M. surely you must be in a REGIMENT ie 36 ENGINEER REGIMENT.(ex sapper) So CORPS SERGEANT MAJOR would be the correct title to use and not C.R.S.M.?? I stand to be corrected.
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  #9  
Old 09-08-10, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by engr9266 View Post
To be a R.S.M. surely you must be in a REGIMENT ie 36 ENGINEER REGIMENT.(ex sapper) So CORPS SERGEANT MAJOR would be the correct title to use and not C.R.S.M.?? I stand to be corrected.
I see where you're coming from but the logic certainly doesn't flow through to the Infantry. An Infantry Regimental Sergeant Major is the RSM of a Battalion and not of a Regiment. This has become even more evident now that the Infantry have now been more or less completely reorganised into multi-battalion regiments. Incidentally, the Guards have always referred to their RSMs as Sergeant Majors but I wouldn't like to call the RSM of a line Infantry battalion that!

J
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  #10  
Old 19-08-10, 02:27 PM
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until the 8-company infantry battalion gave way to the 4- , in 1913/14, the Sergeant-Major [appointment] was one of only two WOs [rank] [the other was the Bandmaster] in the battalion.

It was only with the creation of Company Sergeant-Majors [originally senior C/Sgts until 1915] that the senior man needed a new title. As to why not 'battalion', its a mystery.
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Old 14-10-10, 11:31 PM
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It was in January 1879 that an Army Circular announced the introduction of "a class of Warrant Officer to assist in the discharge of the subordinate duties of the Commissariat & Transport and Ordnance Stores Departments of the Army".

The new rank of Warrant Officer was so successful, that in March 1879 (a bare two months after the introduction of Conductors), the Adjutant-General was suggesting its extension to include Sergeant-Majors and selected Staff Sergeants 1st Class, and these were included in July 1881, thus adding Regimental Sergeant Major and Staff Sergeant 1st Class, Ordnance Stores Corps (OSC) to the Warrant Officer role.

After 1881 Warrant Officers were graded into 2 distinct groups. 'Group 1' being Conductors, and Master Gunners Class 1 (followed later by others) and 'Group 2' being Warrant Officers of lesser standing.

The Large Crown (First Use 1882 - 1915) In 1882, an order introducing the badges to be worn by the second batch of Warrant Officers, stated that they would not wear chevrons. The final choice of the Crown as the badge of Warrant Officers within 'Group 2' was more than likely adopted because the majority of Staff Serjeants Class 1 already wore a crown above a four-bar chevron. All that occurred was that the wearing of the chevrons was discontinued.

All Staff Sergeants 1st Class were re-named Staff Sergeant Majors in 1889. The title Staff Sergeant now being used for Non-Commissioned Officers only (A term now used for the rank immediately below that of Warrant Officer)

The Crown within a Wreath (First Use 1901 - 1918) When the original Warrant Officers (Conductors) were first created, there was no need for them to have any distinguishing badge, as they were unique. Even after the introduction of Warrant Officer 'Group 2' the need for a distictive badge was not that great. The addition of a Wreath round the Crown already introduced for the junior 'Group 2' Warrant Officers seemed to be a very suitable increment by which to distinguish the senior 'Group 1' Warrant Officers. (By which time Conductors OSC & Staff Sergeant Majors Class 1 ASC had been joined by Master Gunners Class 1 Royal Artillery)

In 1915 the original 'Group 1 & 2' Warrant Officers were re-named Warrant Officers Class 1 (But still listed in KRs in two distinct groups). By the end of World War One all the remaining Staff-Serjeants Class One had been promoted to Warrant Officer rank.

The Royal Arms (1915 onwards) When in 1915 the Warrant Officer Class 1 was extended and Class II created, There was a requirement to introduce a suitable rank badge, And the decision was made to extend the use of the Royal Arms already in use with Serjeant Majors in Foot Guards. The wearing of a smaller version of the badge below the elbow was in keeping with what was the practice when the Crown was the only badge of Warrant rank.

The Large Crown (Second Use 1915 - 1939) When the new class of Warrant Officer Class Two was introduced in 1915, and the introduction of the Royal Arms for Warrant Officer Class One 'Group 2' The use of the Crown was adopted by all Warrant Officers Class II.

The Royal Arms in Wreath (1918 onwards) At the end of World War One it was decided to adapt the Royal Arms in the same way the Crown was in 1915 by adding a Wreath, as it was felt by some that the Crown in Wreath lacked a little in 'style' over the Royal Arms now in use by the 'Group 2' Warrant Officer Class One.

So at the close of World War One, Three badges were in use by Warrant Officers. The Royal Arms within a Wreath by 'Group 1' Warrant Officer Class 1. The Royal Arms by 'Group 2' Warrant Officer Class 1 and the Large Crown by Warrant Officers Class II. The Crown in Wreath no longer being in use.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 14-10-10 at 11:44 PM.
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  #12  
Old 14-10-10, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
until the 8-company infantry battalion gave way to the 4- , in 1913/14, the Sergeant-Major [appointment] was one of only two WOs [rank] [the other was the Bandmaster] in the battalion.
.
There could be and often was a third WO in the battalion before the 4-company re-organisation and that was the unit's Schoolmaster, although I am unclear when this appointment ceased.
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Old 15-10-10, 12:12 PM
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The Royal Arms in Wreath (1918 onwards) At the end of World War One it was decided to adapt the Royal Arms in the same way the Crown was in 1915 by adding a Wreath, as it was felt by some that the Crown in Wreath lacked a little in 'style' over the Royal Arms now in use by the 'Group 2' Warrant Officer Class One.

So at the close of World War One, Three badges were in use by Warrant Officers. The Royal Arms within a Wreath by 'Group 1' Warrant Officer Class 1. The Royal Arms by 'Group 2' Warrant Officer Class 1 and the Large Crown by Warrant Officers Class II. The Crown in Wreath no longer being in use.[/QUOTE]

In the interests of historical accuracy I think you will find that AO 309 of October 1918 specified the crown and wreath for many WO II appointments: Master Gunner 3rd class [with gun], Artificer QM Sergeants [with crossed hammer and pincers], a goodly number of other QM Sgt appointments with appropriate horseshoe, crossed rifles etc] and all QMS of line infantry.

Incidentally, there were indeed two rank badges when the Sgt Major wore the crown: the WO Bandmaster badge incorporated the crown into a one-piece wreath lyre and crown.

Last edited by grumpy; 15-10-10 at 12:13 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old 16-10-10, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
The Royal Arms in Wreath (1918 onwards) At the end of World War One it was decided to adapt the Royal Arms in the same way the Crown was in 1915 by adding a Wreath, as it was felt by some that the Crown in Wreath lacked a little in 'style' over the Royal Arms now in use by the 'Group 2' Warrant Officer Class One.

So at the close of World War One, Three badges were in use by Warrant Officers. The Royal Arms within a Wreath by 'Group 1' Warrant Officer Class 1. The Royal Arms by 'Group 2' Warrant Officer Class 1 and the Large Crown by Warrant Officers Class II. The Crown in Wreath no longer being in use.

In the interests of historical accuracy I think you will find that AO 309 of October 1918 specified the crown and wreath for many WO II appointments: Master Gunner 3rd class [with gun], Artificer QM Sergeants [with crossed hammer and pincers], a goodly number of other QM Sgt appointments with appropriate horseshoe, crossed rifles etc] and all QMS of line infantry.

Incidentally, there were indeed two rank badges when the Sgt Major wore the crown: the WO Bandmaster badge incorporated the crown into a one-piece wreath lyre and crown.[/QUOTE]


Thanks for that interesting snippet about the crown and wreath in Oct 1918 Grumpy. Can you post a copy of it at all? Until now I had thought that the badge was only reintroduced just before WW2 vis:

The Crown within a Wreath (Second Use 1938 - 1947) In Army Council Instruction 398 of 1938 the Crown in Laurel Wreath was allocated to Warrant Officers Class II on the introduction of Warrant Officer Class III who in turn were allocated the Crown to wear. (This rank was placed in suspension in 1940, technically however this still remains as a rank)

The Crown & Crown within a Wreath (Final Use 1947 onwards) This was to continue untill 1947 (A.C.I. 991 of 1947) when it was decided that Warrant Officers Class II graded as Quartermaster-Sergeants would revert to wearing the Crown in Laurel Wreath and all other Warrant Officers Class II and any remaining Warrant Officers Class III would wear the Crown.
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  #15  
Old 16-10-10, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
In the interests of historical accuracy I think you will find that AO 309 of October 1918 specified the crown and wreath for many WO II appointments: Master Gunner 3rd class [with gun], Artificer QM Sergeants [with crossed hammer and pincers], a goodly number of other QM Sgt appointments with appropriate horseshoe, crossed rifles etc] and all QMS of line infantry.

Incidentally, there were indeed two rank badges when the Sgt Major wore the crown: the WO Bandmaster badge incorporated the crown into a one-piece wreath lyre and crown.
[/I]

Thanks for that interesting snippet about the crown and wreath in Oct 1918 Grumpy. Can you post a copy of it at all? Until now I had thought that the badge was only reintroduced just before WW2 vis:

The Crown within a Wreath (Second Use 1938 - 1947) In Army Council Instruction 398 of 1938 the Crown in Laurel Wreath was allocated to Warrant Officers Class II on the introduction of Warrant Officer Class III who in turn were allocated the Crown to wear. (This rank was placed in suspension in 1940, technically however this still remains as a rank)

The Crown & Crown within a Wreath (Final Use 1947 onwards) This was to continue untill 1947 (A.C.I. 991 of 1947) when it was decided that Warrant Officers Class II graded as Quartermaster-Sergeants would revert to wearing the Crown in Laurel Wreath and all other Warrant Officers Class II and any remaining Warrant Officers Class III would wear the Crown.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I will scan and post and, if its not very legible, you can ask me for it email. No problem.
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