Leicestershire Reg cap badges

[Alex Rice]

Hi All
I've had these 2 badges for a while, both full size cap badges, and have always been happy with them. I was just going through some badges when I noticed that neither have braize holes at the back. The slidered badge has a nice taper on the slider and slight wear from polishing, the lugged badge has really good detail at the front and back. The lugs aren't 'footed'.
I know sweat holes aren't a guarantee, but I'd like to be sure before I ditch these badges as fakes.
Anyway advice welcome, thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Alex

['Ticker' Riley]

Hi Alex

I have seen an all-brass/gilding metal version of your slidered example elsewhere - that is to say the exact same design/style, so would be by the same maker. I would therefore think your bi-metal one could well date from the Great War, even though it doesn’t have sweat holes. As for the Edwardian lugged one, I have seen this same style/design both with and without sweat holes, so again would say this is fine too. I’ve been trying to do some work on these Leicesters badges since I started collecting last year, and whilst I wouldn’t claim to be an expert I’d personally be very happy to have both these badges in my collection – hope this helps?

Best regards

Martin

[badgecollector]

hi alex and martin
i am no expert and welcome comments on my comments, but i would say your slider is a good one. i dont like the lugged version. the title hindoostan seems to be double struck or off centre and no sweatholes are bad signs for me
hey, but i may be wrong and often am
bc

['Ticker' Riley]

Hello badgecollector

Good to have your input, and interesting to hear your suspicions of Alex’s lugged badge because of it not having any sweat holes. When I first started collecting I didn’t know about sweat holes, though soon came to realise that these are indeed generally a sign of an early badge. However, although I’m still very much a novice, especially compared with some of the expert voices we are lucky enough to have as members of this Forum, I am now of the opinion that the use of sweat holes actually varied considerably between different manufactures. My studies on these Leicesters badges are still very much in their early stages, but I’m inclined to think that whilst some makers ceased using sweat holes as part of their manufacturing process during the Great War, others continued to use them right up to the Second World War and even after (Dowler’s post-1946 Leicesters beret badges have what look like sweat holes).

Like you I think Alex’s slidered badge is a genuine one, and could well be by a maker who only began producing badges during the First World War; going by the fact that I have also seen this exact same design in all-brass/gilding metal. Though I have to say I do also believe his lugged one is good. I think it is worth pointing out here that this particular manufacture’s style is the one shown in the 1900 Dress Regulations:

I have seen a number of Leicesters badges of this style/design, some with lugs and some with sliders. Interestingly all the slidered examples I have so far seen have sweat holes, which means this maker was still using them around 1906, whilst those without sweat holes have all been lugged. Further, all of the slidered badges had a rather poorly defined ‘H’ in the ‘Hindoostan’ top scroll, something which I have seen on some lugged versions again with sweat holes, and which I personally took to be due to wear in the dies.

Now this next bit might set the cat amongst the pigeons somewhat, but the badges of this style I have seen up till now without sweat holes (which have always been lugged) all have a much better defined ‘H’, suggesting to me they might actually be earlier!? Could it be that in this instance the badges without sweat holes pre-date the ones with them? Does anyone know when sweat holes were introduced to the manufacturing process?

Like I have said elsewhere, I am still very much learning about cap badges, but the quality of Alex’s lugged badge makes me think it is genuine. The only question for me is would it be older than the similar badges of this style that do have sweat holes, and at the moment my personal preference would be that it is. I’m sure someone else will rush to correct me if I’m way out on this, but all I see is a decent old badge and certainly not a restrike.

Best regards

Martin

P.S. For what it’s worth I think the double struck/off centre appearance of the ‘Hindoostan’ might just be a trick of the light and the way the photograph was taken, but maybe Alex could clarify this for us? Even if there is a slight misstriking here, I still don’t personally think the badge is a restrike.

[Alex Rice]

Hi Guys
I just checked, the double strike look is just from the photograph, not actually on the badge.
Cheers,
Alex

[Alan Y]

Hello all

I don’t know if this will help or confuse things but I would like to show three Leicestershire badges I have. The first one I have had since I was a boy and most likely belonged to either my grandmothers brother or her first husband who were both in the Leicestershire Regiment and were both killed during WW1. Her brother was with the 7th Battalion and died on the 28th September 1916 and named on the Thiepval Memorial, and her first husband was with the 6th Battalion and died on the 11th July 1917 and is buried in Croisilles British Cemetery. I also have their medals and memorial plaques and on this basis I believe the badge probably was with these items which were passed down to my mother and then to me. I read somewhere else on the Forum a while back that some WW1 badges were plated after the War for the owners to keep as mementos and that perhaps is what has happened to this badge. It has two banners which I imagine are white metal and the main part of the badge would have been brass, which is evident on the body of the tiger where the plating has been worn away. The slider on the back also looks to be brass beneath the plating. It is also apparent that there are no sweat holes beneath the banners. There was also a photograph with the other items which shows a group of Leicestershire soldiers on ‘mop & broom duty’ and possibly one of them is my relative. I wonder if this was taken in England or overseas ?
The second badge I bought recently from a market and is also bimetal but the tiger looks completely different in style and the lettering looks less convincing to me. This also has no sweat holes.
The third one was a recent Internet buy and the tiger looks more like the first badge but generally looks too new and clean to be of a great age. Also it has no sweat holes and the slider is named J.R. Gaunt B’HAM.
I personally think both of Alex’s badges look better than my last two so I would be grateful for any comments on these badges – Regards Alan Y

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[Alan Y]

Here is the photograph I mentioned which I could not include with the last post as I had used all my image allowance – Regards Alan Y
P.S. I just remembered that there was also a cloth badge with the above items and as I have never seen anything like it, I wondered if it was also a Leicestershire badge and from the same period ? Thanks again - Alan Y

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[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Alex Rice

Hi All
I've had these 2 badges for a while, both full size cap badges, and have always been happy with them. I was just going through some badges when I noticed that neither have braize holes at the back. The slidered badge has a nice taper on the slider and slight wear from polishing, the lugged badge has really good detail at the front and back. The lugs aren't 'footed'.
I know sweat holes aren't a guarantee, but I'd like to be sure before I ditch these badges as fakes.
Anyway advice welcome, thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Alex

Alex,
both are 100% OK IMO... Just a makers variation!

Andy

[matti467]

The Leiceters Tiger is green. Odd though it may sound this is the case and your badge is accurate. The stripes are yellow.
Matti

['Ticker' Riley]

Hello Alan

Thank you for posting up your Leicesters badges. As someone who’s very interested in these tiger badges it’s always good to see more examples. I particularly like your plated badge, and with a family provenance like you have for this I personally have no doubt about it being genuine. The second badge you posted, however, is slightly more problematic in as much as I believe this to be the Gladman & Norman design for the badge (though I admit I have yet to confirm this). Gladman & Norman, by their own admission only began producing badges during the Second World War, so there is a chance that this badge could be from that period. But as the Firm also continue to make these badges today, it could equally have been produced a few years ago! As to your third badge, the one clearly marked “J.R. Gaunt B’ham”, from things I have read on the Forum I am led to believe this is actually a 1970s restrike made by Gaunts themselves after the Birmingham Mint took them over in 1973 – I say 1970s, but as the Birmingham Mint didn’t sell the Company to Firmin & Sons until 1991 it’s hard to say how exactly long these restrikes were produced. Anyway, as I say, many thanks for posting the badges, especially as I hadn’t seen a plated badge like your family one before.

Best regards

Martin

[GriffMJ]

Hi Martin

What do you think to this one?

['Ticker' Riley]

Hi Griff

Your badge is one is of a maker’s design that I have seen referred to, rather unflatteringly as it happens, as the ‘fat-cat’ style; and I have to say this is probably the most unattractive version I have seen (after the ‘owl-eyed’ Gladman and Norman ones perhaps). I do have a couple of these, though neither of mine have the small round sweat holes like yours does. I have seen examples with these sweat holes before, which other collectors have, and am actually trying to get hold of some for myself. As of yet I haven’t been able to ascribe a manufacturer to this particular style/design, but my personal feeling is that they could well date from the Great War. Although it is only a suspicion at the moment, I think these very small round holes could be an indication that the maker wasn’t particularly experienced in badge production, and the fact they you get these same badges without the holes means they look to have decided they were not necessary anyway. Having said that, as far as Leicesters badges go, I have actually seen similarly small round holes on an early Gaunt badge, so perhaps there is some other significance to them. Your badge certainly has some nice wear on it, and, despite the relative primitiveness in the design, I have to say I quite like these ‘fat-cat’ Leicesters – but then I am a man obsessed with tiger badges at the moment!!

Best regards

Martin

[Alex Rice]

Hi Alan
Interesting badges, thanks for posting them. The plated one is quite unusual. It would seem odd to me if, in the aftermath and recovering from the great war where someone had just lost at least 2 relatives, they went to all the trouble to chrome plate a badge.
It would be good to find out if maybe one of the battalions had their badges chromed as a mark of individuality or something.
Cheers,
Alex

[Alex Rice]

Hi Griff
I just saw the post with your 'fat cat' badge. I'm sorry, but I can't say I like it. I think every badge I've seen with sweat holes has had them symmetrically placed. Yours looks like they have been drilled as an afterthought and are badly positioned, I'd be a bit worried about that. Maybe Andy could offer an opinion on that?
Cheers,
Alex

[ncc]

Originally Posted by Alan Y

Here is the photograph I mentioned which I could not include with the last post as I had used all my image allowance – Regards Alan Y
P.S. I just remembered that there was also a cloth badge with the above items and as I have never seen anything like it, I wondered if it was also a Leicestershire badge and from the same period ? Thanks again - Alan Y

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hello
can you tell me what size the cloth badge is?
Bob