EU referendum

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by BWEF

this does not end at the end of March.2019 There will be years of negotiations ahead.

It ends.... there will not be years of negotiations.

I refer you to the Chatham House speech I linked in a previous post.

Our former PM "Dave".... made it very clear...... and the result was LEAVE.
https://youtu.be/gUsKWsPcRXE

[Mike_2817]

People are asking their MP to vote in Parliament to reflect the view of their constituency which voted Remain and not implement Article 50 – the treaty provision that triggers our exit from the EU.

If every MP ignored the referendum result and voted reflecting how their constituency voted then Article 50 would still be triggered as a majority of constituencies backed Leave, not just voters.

This proposal does not therefore deliver what those proposing it want.

Brexit means Brexit. And we have to ensure that we make a success of it.

[Hoot]

So, according to BWEF, the Prophet of Doom, I am a headbanger. Fair enough, but if wanting my country back makes me a headbanger then there are a hell of a lot of headbangers in Great Britain and I am proud to be one of them.

[High Wood]

[QUOTE=BWEF;462397] Yes, you are correct. Both the present-day French riots and the Poll Tax riots had exactly the same cause “the imposition of taxes by the ruling classes on those who are least able to afford it.”.

The point you miss it that it was the governments in Paris and in Westminster*that imposed those taxes, and not the EU. How would leaving the EU stop the government of a “free” UK continuing to impose those taxes?

The point that you miss is: why are these taxes being imposed? I would suggest that in part they are to pay for the millions of new arrivals that are benefiting from a welfare system that they have not paid into. A government has no money of its own, the money that a government has comes from taxation or from selling off public assets that the people have paid for through taxation. The welfare budget, including the N.H.S., is an enormous drain on the public purse to the extent that governments have sold assets such as the utilities to the private sector who only have an interest in profit. Many of the owners of these assets are not British and therefore we have lost control of them. We have underfunded our police force, and our military, to the point that we are now nearly lawless and defenceless. We have underfunded our border security to the point that our new immigration policy is to let anyone in who makes it halfway across the English Channel in a rubber dinghy under the cover of darkness. So, let me ask you this. Would you feel happy, safe and secure living in an overcrowded house, with no locks on either the front or back doors, where your neighbours can turn off your water gas and electricity if they felt so inclined?

In fact, giving a free hand to Westminster would make things worse in that they could abolish things like rights at work that Brussels insists upon. Austerity will continue for 50 years according to both the OBR and even Rees-Mogg. Hasn’t ten years of austerity been enough for you?

This is nonsense, most of our rights have come from British workers fighting for them and not as a gift from the EU. Women’s suffrage was fought for and won by British women a hundred years ago. The Factories Act and the Clean Air Act were not a gift from the EU. The National Insurance scheme and the N.H.S. were not a gift from the EU. In many ways we were streets ahead of the EU. Take animal welfare. We abolished live animal exports, the EU overruled us, we abolished Veal Crates, the EU allows them, we abolished battery cages for chickens, the EU overruled us. We abolished fox hunting, the EU allows bull fighting.


Austerity has hit the poorest British people the hardest, and will continue to do so if we leave the EU. It has now been announced that the life expectancy of the poorest British people has fallen for the first time since 1945. Cut the NHS, cut social care and remove the “safety nets” and the poorest of our fellow Britons die. Do we really want this to not only continue, but get worse?

Announced by whom? Statistics can be manipulated. Did the figures include the new arrivals or just the indigenous population? I spent 25 years working with homeless people in London. Tuberculosis had been officially eradicated in Great Britain. It is now rife in the street homeless community, brought in from abroad because it is deemed politically incorrect to carry out health checks on new migrants. It is also extremely difficult to treat in an itinerant population as a full course of treatment has to be undertaken but rarely is. Do your figures include death by suicide, now the biggest cause of death in men between 20 and 40? Often caused by utter despair of life in a liberal western democracy where a man cannot provide for his family because his job has been outsourced abroad, or because he cannot access housing because as a single man he is not in ‘priority need’ for local authority housing. Or, more likely, because his government sent him off to fight in an illegal war then made him redundant, then conveniently washed their hands of him when he asked for help with his PTSD? Does it include deaths by alcohol poisoning from the 24-hour drinking culture imposed by a Labour government to raise taxation. Does it include deaths from drug addiction caused by our inability to control our borders or to crack down on multinational criminal enterprise? Does it include the young boys stabbed to death in London and other major cities because we are too frighten to carry out Stop and Search in case we are labelled racist?

I agree 100% with what you say about many people being regarded as consumers and little more. However, what can poor people afford to consume, other than the very basics? Leaving the EU will make these people poorer still in that austerity will continue and there will be further cuts to their benefits.

The reality is that we consume far too much, both in foodstuffs (we have an obesity crisis) and in material goods. Poverty in Britain is relative, we do not have the poverty of the third world. No one in Britain is walking around bare foot as some did in the 1930s. The whole rotten edifice of the consumer society needs to be torn down. This Christmas, poor families will be encouraged to borrow money to buy their children overpriced crap that they do not need, that will probably be broken or forgotten by the new year, that was made in a third world country by a child earning 10 bob a week.
The situation is now so farcical that manufacturers of high-end goods such as washing machines, computers and cars have to lend money to customers so they can buy their products. The whole credit-based system will collapse under the weight of the unpaid debt. Get ready to bail the bankers out again only this time, most of us don’t have the savings that we had 10 years ago.
Far better that we employ people to make the goods that we sell right here in Britain as we used to and learn to live within our means, buying only what we really need.

You are also correct in saying that government can do little to halt decline, but I would go further. I would say that a Tory government will not even try. There is an element within the Conservative Party called the European Research Group, who relish the decline.
These are the people that want the insanity of a no deal Brexit, who tried to oust Theresa May as leader of the Conservatives at the start of the week. The ERG is full of people who stand to make a bloody fortune if we leave the EU. Make it at the expense of the lives of the rest of the British people. The ERG see leaving the EU as the chance to out-Thatcher Thatcher. To do all the things that Thatcher couldn’t do because of EU membership.
The worst of these people would like to turn this country into a sweatshop with no rights or benefits, so that people have to work for the bare minimum. This idea has been termed “Singapore-on-Thames”:

You have obviously been reading the Guardian again. Let me remind you that the news is carefully edited for the masses and that 99% of what we are being told is bovine excrement. Learn to read between the lines. Thatcher is long dead and yet you still think that she is pulling the strings. The last steel works in Middlesbrough closed in 2015 and under EU rules the government were not allowed to step in with a rescue package. All we could do was wave goodbye. That’s Globalism folks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teesside_Steelworks

It makes sense for the rich to want the country to adopt this model. They stand to make a fortune. It is no accident that Jacob-Rees Mogg’s business is based in Singapore. They are now warning their investors against putting their money into the UK:

JRM is clearly the new bogeyman for the left, a Thatcher for the 21st Century. I wonder if it is because he is one of the few members of parliament that is trying to ensure that not only the Referendum result but also the election manifestos of both the Labour and Conservative party’s to deliver on the referendum result is honoured.

I would agree with you that there will now be civil unrest whatever happens. I would not be so concerned about the real headbangers who still believe in the fairy tale Brexit, complete with unicorns. If they have not realised by now that the Brexit they wanted cannot be done, there is little hope for them. In fact, look how few of them turned out for the recent pro Brexit demonstration.

Ah, the unicorn slur again. Again, the implication that those who want to leave a federalist/globalist hegemony are somehow deluded fantasists. As to the recent pro Brexit demonstration don’t be fooled by the numbers attending. Winners do not protest when they have won. They will however, protest in vast numbers when their victory is snatched away from them.

I would worry more about the thousands of people who stand to lose their jobs as the car firms etc leave. Even more likely as Japan now has a trade deal with the EU. Add thousands of people, in small areas, to the people who are going hungry, and it will be worse than the Poll Tax Riots, and we had a lot more police then.

And yet you remainers seem to care not one jot about the hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs that the U.K. has lost in the 45 years that we have been in Europe. As I said earlier, we need to rebalance the economy, start again as Germany did in 1945, we need to get rid of all the fake jobs such as the betting industry, advertising, and so on and start manufacturing again. But most of all we need to start believing in ourselves again.

The real tragedy of this is that the people who have been the worst treated in the last 50 years voted to leave the EU. The only body that has been trying to help them. Remember when the Cornish, for example, who voted leave, asked if Westminster was going to replace the money that the EU was giving Cornwall? The EU was sending money to many of the poorer areas of the UK, not just Cornwall.

Tragedy, my arse. You speak about the EU as a benevolent uncle handing out largesse to the people of Cornwall. Its our money, we give them huge amounts and they give us a fraction of it back and we are supposed to be grateful. They have destroyed British coal mining on the grounds of carbon emissions but send thousands of tons of Polish coal to Port Talbot so that the Poles can have a mining industry. And what did the Welsh get in return? A bleeding opera house and they are supposed to be grateful. They need jobs and a healthy economy, nobody in Merthyr Tydfil has enough spare cash to afford the opera.

The whole European Union was set up to overturn the result of the Second World War and now, nearly 75 years later, controls nearly the same amount of land as the Axis countries did in 1942. It now wants to consolidate its gains by destroying nation states having already destroyed individual nations abilities to defend themselves.

[silverwash]

I came across this booklet a couple of months ago at a local Oxfam Bookshop. the year of publication was 1948.

High Wood, would just like to say thank you for that, well thought out and precise, i'd vote for you! Regards Mark

[Charliedog012012]

High wood quote:
‘The last steel works in Middlesbrough closed in 2015 and under EU rules the government were not allowed to step in with a rescue package. All we could do was wave goodbye. That’s Globalism folks.’

How very true. The money promised to regenerate the area never appeared...lots of talk but absolutely no action. The press claim that many of those made redundant (around 7000 if we include the service sector) have gained new jobs......however, zero hour contracts do not cut it and Redcar as a whole has suffered.
When told that the North East would suffer the most from leaving the EU a lady from Redcar replied simply ‘when you have got nowt, then you have got nowt to lose’. The London politics do not cut much ice around this neck of the woods.

[Jim Maclean]

Spot on High Wood.

[grenadierguardsman]

We're leaving, end of.....
Andy

[High Wood]

You might say that Westminster will do that instead, but Westminster didn’t do it, which is why Brussels had to step in. It Westminster didn’t do it when they had the money, what chance post any form of Brexit?

Westminster is packed full of party-political self-serving liars, cheats and shysters. They need to remember that they are elected to serve the people and that they are not our masters. Time for a clear out and that includes the House of Lords, the only old people’s home in the world where the elderly, inform and out of touch are paid to be in.

As I said in this forum at the time of the result of the referendum what the British, mainly English, people collectively have done is what my old grandma used to call “cutting off your nose to spite your face”.

In a case of potentially fatal illness it is often necessary to amputate an infected limb or cut out a cancerous growth. Two more years in the EU will involve surrendering the last of our sovereignty, direct taxation and the adoption of the Euro. Failure to leave now really will be the end of the U.K.

Quite apart from which, Brexit cannot be done without destroying the economy and badly affecting the life chances of the vast majority of British people. Remember when the Brexiteers said the deal would be the easiest in history, they need us more than we need them etc etc ad nauseum? How is that working out for them?

The old chestnuts out again, well it is Christmas. You forgot the one about destroying your children’s future and how they won’t be able to get jobs in the EU anymore. Having seen the European youth unemployment figures it seems that even European youngsters cannot get jobs in Europe. There are over 750,000 French citizens working in the U.K. Do you think that the little French man with the Oedipal complex can find employment for all of them if they return home?

No hard form of Brexit will pass the House of Commons and the ERG bid to oust Theresa May failed. So, she is safe as Tory leader beyond March, and will have to try for the softest Brexit as possible. That is about all that is left, short of a vote of no confidence, a referendum and/or a general election. All the while the world is laughing at us. Here is Hong Kong:

Then, come the next election, an awful number of M.P.s will be job hunting. Good to see that the Lib Dem propaganda minister Clegg get his comeuppance from the good people of Hallamshire. Still, his globalist masters found him a new position, not the one he wanted in the E.U, but with Facebook, where his first action was to remove all the derogatory remarks made about him.

I also agree that the system is rotten to the core, and the Brexit farce has exposed that for all to see. The best hope now is that the UK might manage to stay together and that we have electoral reform. The FPTP system is a gerrymandered farce. There are safe seats that have been held by the same party since, and even before, the electoral reform of 1918. If you are a Progressive voter living in a safe Tory constituency, or a Tory living is a safe Labour constituency, you might as well live in North Korea for all the chance you have of getting an MP who represents your views.

We can certainly agree on this. But I never understand why Labour voters in areas that once manufactured, built ships, cut coal, or fished still vote Labour when nothing ever happens except further decline.

My own view is that we should adopt the system of voting that has been used for EU elections. Of course this will lead to coalitions and compromise, but it is far better than one half of the country riding rough shod over the other. PR allowed UKIP to win 24 seats in the European Parliament. FPTP let them have one at Westminster, and even he was a Tory renegade who spent most of his time at Westminster fighting with Nigel Farage.

FPTP disenfranchised 3.9,000,000 UKIP voters in the election before the last one and you wonder why they voted to leave. As to the European elections, I have heard it said, time and time again that the EU is democratic because we can elect our MEPs. The truth is that more people vote on the Strictly Come Dancing result than vote in EU elections. The turn out from the U.K has never been above 38% and even Germany only once managed to get a 68% turnout. It seems that apathy rules.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/electi...n/turnout.html

I have to suggest that my idea for a way forward Trumps, no pun intended, yours. I still don’t get this “democratic will of the people” being overturned thing. Our MPs are representatives and not delegates. They are supposedly at Westminster to represent their electorate by voting in the way that they think best.

Only if you are a federalist/globalist. I am not willing to sell my national identity for a BMW, a cellar full of French wine and free roaming charges when travelling in Europe. I am not one of those who believes that God is an Englishman. I know that he isn’t but I am willing to bet that he wishes he was.

Your line of argument here would only work if our MPs were delegates, having been sent to Westminster to vote the way they are told. This is another absurdity of Brexit. Like “taking back control” and then attacking the judiciary for following British laws and attacking the House of Lords for doing their job.

If you don’t understand by now that the so-called Honourable members of the House are Commons are the biggest bunch of lying, thieving, self-serving hypocrites known to man you really shouldn’t be allowed to vote. Democracy, as practiced in the U.K. is a sham. We need to clear the whole lot out and start again. Anyone who applies for the job should automatically be barred from office.


Almost as silly as complaining about “non-elected bureaucrats” when all the time they knew that the House of Lords is not elected, and neither is the Queen. When did anybody here ever vote for a senior civil servant? Other than the House of Commons it is ALL non-elected bureaucrats, and the way that the lower house is elected would not stand up to any sort of scrutiny.

See my answer above.

To me, all that happened was that a half-wit of a Prime Minister, a man who never obtained a job on merit in all his life, thought that he could silence an internal dispute within the Tory Party, by promising a referendum on Europe. Of course, he was not expecting an outright win, expected to be saying: “I would have done it, but the Liberal-Democrats won’t let me.”

He was no more a Conservative than Blair was a Socialist, they are all wolves in sheep’s clothing and probably lizards to boot.


You could be right about the end of nation states, including the end of the UK, both in or out of the EU. However, it is better to be in the EU than on our own facing such a future.

No doubt about it, a one world government is what the globalists want, the EU is only a stepping stone.

On our own who are we going to trade with? What are we going to make, who is going to make it, where are we going to make it, and who in going to buy it. More importantly, how are we going to undercut China, India et al?

We aren’t going to trade with anyone, Orwell got it wrong when he said that the U.K. would become Airstrip 1. We are going to become a mixture of refugee camp and penal colony.

Have you noticed how well our prospective future trade talks have been going? Theresa May put access to the NHS, lowering of food standards and allowing things like Fracking on the table with America. Also, who can trust somebody like Trump anyway?

As I mentioned earlier, we are broke. £1,2,000,000,000,000,000,000 in debt. We have sold nearly everything we have to sell. Soon the globalists will be demanding body parts such as our kidneys and hearts in payment for a Sky TV subscription.

India is not interested in any deal that does not include increased Indian immigration to the UK.
Canada, and now Japan, have free trade deals with the EU and Australia and New Zealand are working on them too:
I wouldn’t say that Brexiteers are ‘Too thick to know what you voted for’. I would say that they were lied to and promised the impossible. Take a look at who funded the whole thing too. What does the average Briton who has been neglected and ripped off for half a century have in common with the “non doms“, and tax evaders?
I do not blame people for voting leave, but I do question the fact that, after well over two years, they refuse to accept that they will not get what they think they vote for. For some, Brexit has become a faith based idea, almost like a religion.

I disagree, only the fanatics think that the EU will reform itself in a way that will allow the majority to thrive. It is a cartel, worse than that it is a political entity masquerading as an economic union. In the old soviet bloc they had to build a wall to keep the disillusioned, disaffected unbelievers in. Now, with open borders they do not have to provide full employment or unemployment benefits for their citizens, they can just give them the coach fare to the U.K.

However, short of a time machine it will not work, even if they could get it through Parliament. Remember too that whatever happens this does not end at the end of March.2019 There will be years of negotiations ahead.[/QUOTE]

I do not care how long it takes or how much it costs. You cannot put a price on freedom.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by High Wood

Only the fanatics think that the EU will reform itself in a way that will allow the majority to thrive. It is a cartel, worse than that it is a political entity masquerading as an economic union.

On target

[High Wood]

Originally Posted by silverwash

I came across this booklet a couple of months ago at a local Oxfam Bookshop. the year of publication was 1948.

Yep, this was all planned a long time ago and these guys are playing the long game. I think it was Chairman Mao who said something along the lines of, if you put a lobster in a pot of boiling water it will resist because it knows your intentions, if you put it in a pan of cold water and gently heat it up, by the time that it realises what is happening, it is to late to save itself.

[High Wood]

Originally Posted by MarkGD

High Wood, would just like to say thank you for that, well thought out and precise, i'd vote for you! Regards Mark

Thank you, but I won't be standing anytime soon. 59 years old and never been a member of any political party. I have always preferred to be outside the tent if there is micturation to be done.

Simon.

[BWEF]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

It ends.... there will not be years of negotiations.

I refer you to the Chatham House speech I linked in a previous post.

Our former PM "Dave".... made it very clear...... and the result was LEAVE.
https://youtu.be/gUsKWsPcRXE

You are quoting David Cameron's opinion on Brexit meaning leave, sorry LEAVE? I would be a lot more impressed if he had not run for the hills rather than try and make it happen. The truth is that he knew it couldn't be done and got the hell out pdq.

Regarding negotiations, you are just being silly.

If we leave the EU we will have to negotiate trade deals with the EU, and with everybody else. The deal between the EU and Canada alone took seven years to negotiate.

If you think we can trade under WTO terms from then on, we would have to be crazy. There is, I believe, one country in Africa that trades solely under those terms and there is just one country for good reason.

Everybody else has trade deals, which we wont have, and we will not have the trained people to negotiate them either. Our trade deals have been done by the EU since 1973.

Knowing how desperate and how inexperienced we will be we will be in danger of being "skinned alive" in the negotiations.

Just think David Davis writ large.

[BWEF]

Originally Posted by Mike_2817

People are asking their MP to vote in Parliament to reflect the view of their constituency which voted Remain and not implement Article 50 – the treaty provision that triggers our exit from the EU.

If every MP ignored the referendum result and voted reflecting how their constituency voted then Article 50 would still be triggered as a majority of constituencies backed Leave, not just voters.

This proposal does not therefore deliver what those proposing it want.

Brexit means Brexit. And we have to ensure that we make a success of it.

No matter what people are asking, our MPs are representatives and not delegates.

MPs are supposed to make what they feel is the best decision for their constituents, not do as they are told by their constituents.

If people do not like what their MP does, the remedy is to vote them out at the next election.

"Brexit means Brexit. And we have to ensure that we make a success of it." How is that working out for Theresa May thus far?