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  #46  
Old 15-12-16, 12:41 PM
stevjp stevjp is offline
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Default My NZAOC Badges

Hi Guys,
attached are a few of my NZAOC.
The NZ Ordnance Dept is marked to C.M.Bay to middle back.
The Gaunt marked badges, the Cap has a NZ sweated to top, but both collars are die-stamped. The two darkened collars, which are NOT Gaunt marked, but have all the characteristic's of Gaunt manufacture... D shaped lugs etc.. have the NZ sweated to top.
The last two shots are of variations of Cap which I've come across over the years.
All the best
James.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_6175.JPG (75.7 KB, 32 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6176.JPG (103.2 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6177.JPG (79.5 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6178.JPG (99.3 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6179.JPG (90.3 KB, 32 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6180.JPG (92.9 KB, 21 views)
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  #47  
Old 17-12-16, 09:41 PM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Nice examples James, and interesting to see a match to Tinto’s cast badge in post #41.
The ‘NZ’ being sweated onto the top of the Gaunt cap badge instead of die stamped as is with the Gaunt collars only raises more questions.
However in viewing your two NZEF NZOAC collar variations, it seems the stamping detail is march more sharper on the back of the unmarked collars compared to the Gaunt made collars.
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  #48  
Old 17-12-16, 11:27 PM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
The ‘NZ’ being sweated onto the top of the Gaunt cap badge instead of die stamped as is with the Gaunt collars only raises more questions..
I suspect and this is purely speculative, that the reason for the sweating of the NZ on to the badges is that originally these badges stared life as British Army Ordnance Department Badges, this could have been done either to meet urgent requirements to manufacture NZAOC badges or it could be because in 1918 the Army Ordnance Department was disestablished and this was a practical way to re-purpose the now surplus AOD badges.
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  #49  
Old 19-12-16, 06:59 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Rob with only two variations of the NZEF NZAOC collar badges presented so far, I’m thinking the sweated on ‘NZ’ collar badges are most likely to be the first issue and the Gaunt die stamped collars are the second issue.

Just out of interest, do you have any post 1924 photographs showing the collar badges being worn?
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  #50  
Old 28-04-17, 07:33 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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I believe I may have cracked the earliest NZAOC badge riddle, well it certainly predates the supposedly 1915 dated picture of Colonel A H Herbert.

The following photo is from the National Army Museum of New Zealand, it shows members of the New Zealand Supply Depot Staff at Zeitoun Camp, and was definitely taken in 1915, the majority of the cap badges displayed are Army Service Corps



However the chap in the front row third from left is definitely wearing a British Army Ordnance Corps cap badge on his lemon squeezer and NZASC collar badges.

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  #51  
Old 28-04-17, 08:07 AM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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Great find, I have also come across this photo and I have two hypothesise that I have been pondering.

1. Planning for a NZ Ordnance Corps was stared in earnest in 1911, with Individuals trained in Ordnance matters and Ordnance Depots formed for the annual camps of 1913 and 1914. When NZ mobilised an Ordnance Department was formed in the mobilisation camps to assist in equipping the troops for overseas service. Given that there were AOC armourers attached to the New Zealand Forces, it is highly probably that the AOC badge was adopted as the 1st NZ ordnance Badge.


2. When the NZEF Main body arrived in Egypt, then Sergeant Levien was attached to the British Ordnance Corps Depot at the Citadel in Cairo to study the British Ordnance systems, considering New Zealand had no Ordnance Corps, maybe AOC badges were adopted by the NZ DAODS staff to identify them as Ordnance and not ASC.

I would really love to know what colour the pugaree was, if it was in the ordnance colours it would indicate that some thought had been given to NZ Ordnance Identifiers.
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  #52  
Old 28-04-17, 08:20 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNeil View Post
I would really love to know what colour the pugaree was, if it was in the ordnance colours it would indicate that some thought had been given to NZ Ordnance Identifiers.
It is definitely not an NZASC puggaree.
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  #53  
Old 01-06-17, 08:23 PM
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Through my Face book page 'Unknown warriors of the NZEF' ,I get sent scans of unknown WW1 New Zealand soldiers to help identify .


The soldier with a crown over his stripes (CSM?) is wearing what appears to be Ordnance collars with the NZ on top .A name which appears to be Stewart is on the back of the card .


Any informative comments welcome.


*** Update ....soldier identified as Charles Alfred Oldbury ,26/1155 , Armourer Sergeant ***
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File Type: jpg chris naylor 9.jpg (25.3 KB, 27 views)

Last edited by pukman; 08-06-17 at 08:30 PM.
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  #54  
Old 22-06-17, 11:34 PM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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I have seen an example of the British Army Ordnance Corps 1895-1918 badge with the Letters "NZ" affixed to the top of the shield, have any other members seen such a badge, have a picture to share, or even better any background on the modified badge?

RAOC 1918.jpg

Last edited by RNeil; 23-06-17 at 02:28 AM.
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  #55  
Old 22-09-18, 05:55 AM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
Rob with only two variations of the NZEF NZAOC collar badges presented so far, I’m thinking the sweated on ‘NZ’ collar badges are most likely to be the first issue and the Gaunt die stamped collars are the second issue.

Just out of interest, do you have any post 1924 photographs showing the collar badges being worn?
Have finally come across a post-1924 picture of the NZEF NZAOC collar badges been worn.

Taken at an Artillery Camp at Waipukurau during March 1934, it shows Armament Staff Sergeant J.W(Bill) Dalton wearing the 1917 pattern badges and Armament Staff Sargent A.S Richardson wearing the NZEF badge. Richardson served in the NZEF NZAOC so wearing the NZEF badge could be the original ones that he was issued in 1918.



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  #56  
Old 29-09-18, 10:01 PM
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Very interesting Gentlemen!
I have one in my collection, I wonder if this NZ version can be dated ?
Kind regards Chay
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  #57  
Old 29-09-18, 11:25 PM
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3 July 1924 to 1937, according to Corbett.

Rgds, Thomas
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  #58  
Old 30-09-18, 12:46 AM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweed View Post
I wonder if this NZ version can be dated ?
Kind regards Chay
This pattern of this badge was originally used by the Ordnance Corps in the NZEF between 1916-19 (Oldham Ref 8/259) with a different badge adopted for use by Ordnance in New Zealand (Oldham Ref 8/257), the NZ pattern badge would remain in use from 1917 to 1937.

The NZEF Ordnance pattern badge was not in wide use during the interwar period. Photographic evidence shows that it was still used by some individuals who served in Ordnance in the NZEF who then resumed service in the peacetime army. By 1936 stocks of the NZ pattern Ordnance badge had been exhausted and with 180 of the original NZEF Ordnance Badges in stock (and 319 of the collar badges) permission was sought to officially reintroduce the NZEF Ordnance badge back into service. Instead of adopting the NZEF pattern badge a new Ordnance badge resembling the RAOC badge was adopted for the NZAOC (Oldham 8/261). As an interim measure until the new badges were produced the NZEF Pattern badge was approved for temporary wear.

With the advent of the 2nd World War, the New Zealand Ordnance Corps (NZOC) was created as the Territorial Army element of the NZAOC with the NZEF Pattern badge adopted as the NZOC Badge. With a strength of several hundred members, stocks of existing badges would have soon been exhausted and local manufacture was undertaken. The example pictures has a makers mark for Mayer & Keane, a Wellington badge Manufacture, so at as an assumption, I would date this bade from sometime between 1941-44.

Last edited by RNeil; 30-09-18 at 01:29 AM.
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  #59  
Old 30-09-18, 10:34 AM
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Thanks for the info!
I wouldn’t be sure of the date not being knowledgeable in this field ! I do have a few NZ badges which I do like to collect if I see them for sale
Kind regards Chay
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  #60  
Old 13-10-18, 03:04 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNeil View Post
Have finally come across a post-1924 picture of the NZEF NZAOC collar badges been worn.

Taken at an Artillery Camp at Waipukurau during March 1934, it shows Armament Staff Sergeant J.W(Bill) Dalton wearing the 1917 pattern badges and Armament Staff Sargent A.S Richardson wearing the NZEF badge. Richardson served in the NZEF NZAOC so wearing the NZEF badge could be the original ones that he was issued in 1918.

That is a superb photo.
I had always suspected the 1917 collars, which appear more often on trade-me compared to the NZEF collars, were worn past 1924 until stocks were depleted.

According to Major General Kippenberger "The 1930 - 1938 was probably the most discouraging the Army has survived. Those who soldiered on, Regular or Territorial, knew that they had no support or sympathy from Government or the great majority of the public."

Interesting to note the lack of collar badges being worn by the gunners.
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