I believe the RAF Pilot flying badge is a copy - thoughts please

[Canadian chip]

Hello everyone, as vendor of the uniform & pilot's brevet in question, I completely agree, the copy looks very similar, but "similar" is the operative word. As well as similarities there are also differences to the one on the uniform I'm selling. I feel that if similarities shouldn't be ignored then neither should the differences. Wouldn't a replicator of RAF wings make them of a "uniform" design? I've studied the photographs(Thanks RCAF MIKE)& with even my first initial glance can see differences in the crown, the curve of the sides, & height for example. Also there are differences in the lettering. Can I ask RCAF MIKE, the example you were stung with, was it padded? The example on my uniform is.

Kind regards,
Graham.

[Nichollg]

Interesting comments.
In my opinion the wings are not real. There are a few things that are wrong with them, but the crown in a dead give away. This style of crown is not one that was used on genuine Tudor crowned (Kings crown) pilots' wings.
My main interest is in NZ, AUS & UK wings and brevets.
In all my extensive research I have never seen a photo from the war period with this style of wing. I believe these were produced as a reproduction some years ago (approx. 1970s?) and copied since. You often see them used in movies and by reinactors etc.
Cheers
Gareth

[PFF Museum]

Good morning guys,

I would like to thank you for all your comments and discussion. It has been a very worthwhile and eye widening conversation.

Thank you once again and all the very best to you and yours.

Johnny

[Canadian chip]

Hello everyone, yes some very interesting comments & points raised. So the picture posted by RCAF MIKE is that of a copy of a copy? There's a certain irony in that. If made in the 1970's would that possibly explain why the brevet didn't "glow"when examined under UV light?
A little annoying on the one hand, but on the other, had it not been for the RAF wings I probably wouldn't have bought the uniform, a uniform belonging to the older brother of Air vice Marshall George Croil. I love Canada & have a great fondness for Canadians, but, after four months of traveling, by the time I'd reached Kelowna B.C. I was so very homesick & felt a near desperation to hear another English voice.
So desperate in fact, I sat enthralled watching "Ground Force", it's a sorry state of affairs when the voice of Alan Titchmarsh is music to the ears. Silly fool that I am I thought the "RAF uniform" should come "home", much to my wife's long suffering annoyance. Still onwards & upwards, I hope to learn a lot on this forum. Kind regards, Graham

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Johnny,
Quite frankly, I always look at this sort of thing with an open mind, when you look at wings in particular, it is very important to remember there were very many weird and wonderful wings produced that are perfectly original.
When I first glanced at the image in the original post, they struck me as being wrong, hence the content of my post, number four, but, whilst there is the very distinctive fake that appears identical, I always wonder was there ever an original, or is the fake completely spurious, in that it is not merely a copy?
I also would take into account any other issue, very clearly, in this case, what you stated in post number six, that it was "locked away in a suitcase and found in a house clearance" and so on, which tends to suggest that it has not been touched, when very clearly, the reverse is actually far more likely to be the case.
Never mind, you still have the BD, which I assume is okay.
Kind regards Frank

[Frank Kelley]

Sorry Johnny, I've only just noticed the BD in question actually belongs to another member!

[Frank Kelley]

Graham,
Quite frankly, I am of the opinion that it is not all that easy to get stung with a copy wing these days, tell us more about that BD you know where it came from?
Regards Frank

Originally Posted by Canadian chip

Hello everyone, as vendor of the uniform & pilot's brevet in question, I completely agree, the copy looks very similar, but "similar" is the operative word. As well as similarities there are also differences to the one on the uniform I'm selling. I feel that if similarities shouldn't be ignored then neither should the differences. Wouldn't a replicator of RAF wings make them of a "uniform" design? I've studied the photographs(Thanks RCAF MIKE)& with even my first initial glance can see differences in the crown, the curve of the sides, & height for example. Also there are differences in the lettering. Can I ask RCAF MIKE, the example you were stung with, was it padded? The example on my uniform is.

Kind regards,
Graham.

[Canadian chip]

Hello Frank,
I agree & although I'm not an "expert", (not by any stretch of the imagination) I'm not a complete "nube"either, the pilot's brevet just looks & feels "right" in person if you know what I mean. The BD is part of a complete aircrew suit. BD size 15,measures 50" across the chest, trousers size 18. It only has minimal service wear around the bottom of the trouser leg. I have to agree with Johnny, it's the best example I've ever seen. I picked it up in a yard sale in Kelowna B.C. I had my eye on a very nice mid-war Irvin, which someone nabbed first, but then was told "there's some stuff in the case over there you might be interested in." The suitcase contained an aircrew jumper, C-type flying helmet, "sea boot socks" & the aircrew suit. Thanks to Johnny I recently researched the officer's name Flt. T.M.Croil & quite a history. Elder brother of Air Vice Marshall Croil, 1st cousin of General Billy Mitchell, piloted T.E.Lawrence during the Arab uprising & mentioned in Lawrence's book "seven pillars of wisdom." Although I believe the brevert original, I also believe a later addition to the uniform. It's on "fleabay" if you'd like to have gander. Regards, Graham.

[Canadian chip]

Just spotted this on "fleabay"
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WW2-Era-Ro...-/191898721517

The seller says it was "acquired as part of the estate of Air Vice Marshall Ian Douglas Napier-Lawson, and has good provenance".
it's a dead ringer for the one on my aircrew suit.
Any thoughts?

Regards, Graham.

[manchesters]

Graham.

This seller has several wings "Aquired from the estate of".
That doesnt mean he wore them and in fact the medal ribbons indicate that indeed he didnt wear most of them.

I am not knowledgeable enough to say if they are genuine or not but why would anyone cut up his uniforms and clearly uniforms of others?

regards

[Frank Kelley]

Oh dear, not really one you would want to buy.

Originally Posted by Canadian chip

Just spotted this on "fleabay"
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WW2-Era-Ro...-/191898721517

The seller says it was "acquired as part of the estate of Air Vice Marshall Ian Douglas Napier-Lawson, and has good provenance".
it's a dead ringer for the one on my aircrew suit.
Any thoughts?

Regards, Graham.

[Canadian chip]

Yes, it does look a little........"clean" & "fresh" for an original wing.
Although a bit of a ringer for the one on my BD, again there are differences.

[Canadian chip]

Simon, yes that's just what I was thinking after having a closer look at the seller.
Regards,
Graham.

[Cribyn]

This 'bought from the estate of ....' comment is something that I see a lot of on ebay in particular. Usually there is nothing to back up the statement, so really it is not provenance in my view.

I am sure we all remember the fairly recent posts on the special forces items sold from 'the estate of Sir Christopher Lee' and the comment from another member that he sold a lot of reproductions to Sir Christopher. Being sold 'from the estate of ..' is no guarantee of originality.

[Canadian chip]

Cribyn,
Indeed, "provenance" is just a word without evidence, especially on ebay.