Coldstream Guards

[grenadierguardsman]

At some point in time i believe the Coldstream Guards wore the cap star on the ride hand side of their headdress. Paintings and a mention in The Coldstream Guards 1885-1914 By Colonel Sir John Hall, Bart.,C.B.E, is some of the evidence i have found so far. I wanted the views of other Forum members, i have been trying to get hold of "Hawthorn" Simon. Not sure if his having problems with the message system, as i have sent him a few. And have had no reply back.
Regards
Andy

[jf42]

THere is a photo of Captain Heneage in the Crimea wearing a badge on the RHS of his privately-purchased, French-style forage cap, and the series of engravings of Coldstream NCOs, produced to raise funds for families after the war, show the Field Service cap being worn with a badge on the RHS.

Ref. NAM CHELSEA: 'Sergeant Troke, Sergeant Rackley, Sergeant Long, Coldstream Guards, Crimea, 1855 (c). Coloured lithograph by J A Vintner, published by Henry Graves and Co, 6 Pall Mall East, London, 2 Feb 1856; depicts the named sergeants in three-quarter-length portraits; associated with the Crimean War'.

The panoramic photo of the Coldstream Guards taken at Scutari before leaving for the Crimea shows some wearing their new Field Service caps athwart their head with one side-flap turned down to form a peak/visor. The cap star badge above the peak is temporaily to the front but I suppose it's a moot point as to whether it was originallly on the RHS of the cap or not.

The same style was affected off duty in the 1870s but then the cap star was situated on the LHS when the cap was being worn fore-and-aft as a 'side cap.'

http://www.florence-nightingale-aven...oldstreams.jpg

[Hawthorn]

Andy,

This photograph is one of a series I'm sure you will have seen. Wounded Soldiers of all three of the Foot Guards Regiments at the time of the Crimea War were photographed at Buckingham Palace. This photograph clearly shows the Capstar being worn on the right hand side of the cap. The numbers refer to a post on the British Medal Forum concerning the individuals shown. (link attached should anyone be interested).

http://www.britishmedalforum.com/vie...p?f=5&t=122025

Regards Simon.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by jf42

THere is a photo of Captain Heneage in the Crimea wearing a badge on the RHS of his privately-purchased, French-style forage cap, and the series of engravings of Coldstream NCOs, produced to raise funds for families after the war, show the Field Service cap being worn with a badge on the RHS.

Ref. NAM CHELSEA: 'Sergeant Troke, Sergeant Rackley, Sergeant Long, Coldstream Guards, Crimea, 1855 (c). Coloured lithograph by J A Vintner, published by Henry Graves and Co, 6 Pall Mall East, London, 2 Feb 1856; depicts the named sergeants in three-quarter-length portraits; associated with the Crimean War'.

The panoramic photo of the Coldstream Guards taken at Scutari before leaving for the Crimea shows some wearing their new Field Service caps athwart their head with one side-flap turned down to form a peak/visor. The cap star badge above the peak is temporaily to the front but I suppose it's a moot point as to whether it was originallly on the RHS of the cap or not.

The same style was affected off duty in the 1870s but then the cap star was situated on the LHS when the cap was being worn fore-and-aft as a 'side cap.'

http://www.florence-nightingale-aven...oldstreams.jpg

Yes, these are the images i have seen before. And the very ones i make reference too. The Cap is the Albert Cap, it can be worn in various positions. Only issued to the Guards.
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Hawthorn

Andy,

This photograph is one of a series I'm sure you will have seen. Wounded Soldiers of all three of the Foot Guards Regiments at the time of the Crimea War were photographed at Buckingham Palace. This photograph clearly shows the Capstar being worn on the right hand side of the cap. The numbers refer to a post on the British Medal Forum concerning the individuals shown. (link attached should anyone be interested).

http://www.britishmedalforum.com/vie...p?f=5&t=122025

Regards Simon.

Thats another good image too Simon, i have also seen this. I have been in touch with the Coldstream Guards reference this but no-one was interested.
Andy

[Hawthorn]

Andy,

Will see what else I can dig up and get back to you.

Regards Simon.

[Hawthorn]

Just a thought but could the position of the Capstar relate to the position of the Bearskin Cap Plume.

With yourselves holding the right of the line, the Scots central and the Coldstream on the left the relevant Badge or Capstar would be visible when looking to either flank from the centre ground. The Albert Cap appears to have been worn in battle during the Crimea and any visual aid to identifying neighbouring Units would have helped in the confusion of war.


Simon.

[jf42]

Hawthorn, I would say that there could be no other likely explanation.

The red plume to the right was a comparitively recent innovation, given that the bearskin had only been authorised for all ranks of the CG in 1831.

The FS fore-and-aft bonnet for the Foot Guards was entirely new, there was no precedent - although distinctions in headgear had traditionally been worn on the LHS from the Hanoverian cockade onwards- and on Scottish bonnets even earlier. So the CG can't have chosen the RHS for the simple pleasure of being different but rather to reflect the location of the red plume, which was selected for the satisfaction of being different.

Is the reason for the red plume being on the RHS of the bearskin, relating to the three FG regiments on parade, documented, or is that the traditional explanation? I have always wondered, given the strict precedence, why there would have been any doubt as to which regiment was which.

[Hawthorn]

Never seen any documentary evidence however that is the traditional explanation passed on to Recruits, or was when I heard it in the early 80's.

I suppose the identification of Units to the left and right flanks of ones own would have been useful when fighting as a Brigade of similarly uniformed Troops. after all we are talking of the era when Trooping the Colour had the practical purpose of helping Soldiers identify their own Colour as a rallying point in the confusion of battle.


Simon.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Hawthorn

Just a thought but could the position of the Capstar relate to the position of the Bearskin Cap Plume.

With yourselves holding the right of the line, the Scots central and the Coldstream on the left the relevant Badge or Capstar would be visible when looking to either flank from the centre ground. The Albert Cap appears to have been worn in battle during the Crimea and any visual aid to identifying neighbouring Units would have helped in the confusion of war.


Simon.

Yes thats right Simon. JF42, Albert Cap. It must have been not long after the Boer War 1899-1902 that this practice stopped. A shame no one in The Coldstream Guards/Guards Museum knows anything else. There must be some document somewhere relating to this ?
Thanks for replying to this thread.
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Forgot to mention, as JF42 mentions 1831 for the other two Guards regiments to get the Bearskin. So some of us on the Forum believe that the Guards at the time got their new Cap Badges in the same decade, my reckoning is that whoever in the Coldstream Guards wore in on the right hand side. And this became the norm up until/about the early 1900.
Andy

[jf42]

Hawthorn, yes, indeed. The colours continued to be seen as an important rallying point for a battalion, whether fighting in close formation or not, until after Isandlwhana, Maiwand & Majuba, when it was ordered they should no longer accompany troops into the field. It's true, though, that the bearskin as we know it today evolved after Waterloo and may only have been worn in action twice, at the Alma and at Inkerman. The original bearskin, introduced officially in 1768 for grenadier companies and Fusiliers, had been fairly quickly relegated to use on formal occasions. So it may be that the explanation for the arrangement of plumes evolved after the fact, as seems so often to be the way. It certainly would explain why the Scots Fusilier Guards went without a plume.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by jf42

Hawthorn, yes, indeed. The colours continued to be seen as an important rallying point for a battalion, whether fighting in close formation or not, until after Isandlwhana, Maiwand & Majuba, when it was ordered they should no longer accompany troops into the field. It's true, though, that the bearskin as we know it today evolved after Waterloo and may only have been worn in action twice, at the Alma and at Inkerman. The original bearskin, introduced officially in 1768 for grenadier companies and Fusiliers, had been fairly quickly relegated to use on formal occasions. So it may be that the explanation for the arrangement of plumes evolved after the fact, as seems so often to be the way. It certainly would explain why the Scots Fusilier Guards went without a plume.

The Scots ( Fusilier ) Guards at one time did have a white plume also.
Andy

[jf42]

Ah, now I was wondering about that. When the CG and SFG were first authorised to wear the bearskin for all ranks, I think I'm right in saying all grenadier and fusilier caps had a white plume on the LHS of the cap, as had been orderered in 1800

PS In fact, come to think of it, in 1831, for reasons best known to Horse Guards and His Majesty, almost everybody, apart from light bobs, rifles and the 42nd, had been ordered to wear a white feather.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Forgot to mention, as JF42 mentions 1831 for the other two Guards regiments to get the Bearskin. So some of us on the Forum believe that the Guards at the time got their new Cap Badges in the same decade, my reckoning is that whoever in the Coldstream Guards wore in on the right hand side. And this became the norm up until/about the early 1900.
Andy

Since we first researched the ‘grenade fired proper’, that as a metal headdress badge almost certainly first appeared in the mid 1830s, I have since learned that no less a personage than W Y Carman reached the same conclusion via pre-internet research of archived war office material.

I agree that all bearskins initially had a white plume/hackle on the left side, including the Scots Fusilier Guards (as per the old Grenadier flank companies of all infantry). This was the case for both Foot Guards and Fusiliers (which latter were in their entirety dressed as other regiments, including Guards, right flank company). There then followed a period when Fusiliers ceased to wear fur caps and, ironically, when their wear was eventually returned the three ‘old’ Fusilier regiments were obliged to switch their plumes to the opposite (right) side to make a clear differentiation from the Grenadier Guards. In a further irony the other Fusilier regiments adopted plumes on the other, left side to mark their more junior position as ‘Fusiliers’, but not as regiments.