British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > Canadian Military Insignia > General Topics

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 16-09-20, 09:12 AM
Artynut Artynut is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada.
Posts: 605
Default Pilot Officer John G. Magee RCAF

Further to my post in “Airforce” , below, I started thinking of what medals John Magee would have been entitled to. I have spent two hours unsuccessfully, to get that information. Has any member an idea how to obtain that? There is an absolutely stunning amount of information about him, a lot is repetitive, but nothing about medals. Regards, David J.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 16-09-20, 11:20 PM
Walt P's Avatar
Walt P Walt P is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ontario, CANADA
Posts: 160
Default

Hello David,

Thank you for piquing my interest regarding the service & sacrifice of P/O Magee. After much research, I've discovered that he did not qualify for any medals, given his very short time with the RCAF. His active service was from Sept 1941 until his death due to a training accident on 11 Dec 1941.

The only government issued medal would have been the Memorial Cross given to his next of kin.

Cheers,

Walt
__________________
🍁We Remember.🍁
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 17-09-20, 12:01 AM
Bill A's Avatar
Bill A Bill A is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 10,734
Default

If he was a volunteer he should have qualified for the CVSM. Death due to service allowed for the award. And the War Medal as well. He served for more than 28 days.
__________________
Res ipsa loquitur
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 17-09-20, 01:24 AM
Darrell's Avatar
Darrell Darrell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: New Brunswick
Posts: 433
Default

Hi David

I have read through his entire (fascinating) service file and other than the Memorial Cross to his Mother, a Memorial Bar was also sent. That is all that is recorded in the file WRT medals.

His file is online here: https://collectionscanada.ca/obj/001...spie-j5823.pdf

That said, Pilot Officer Magee most certainly qualified for medals. Although there is no mention in his file online, his 14 months of service in Canada and in the UK as an Operational Fighter Pilot in the RCAF would have earned him, at the very least, the fol medals:

1939-1945 Star,
Air Crew Europe Star,
Canadian Volunteer Service Medal w/ Overseas clasp, and
1939-1945 War Medal.

The criteria for each have length of service and location caveats but some of those are waived if killed on service.

A basic description for each can be found here: https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remem...ls-decorations

All were un-named as issued and were not even issued until after the war. It is possible that they were not sent but also that they were but his parents did not receive them as they had moved in 1945. Maybe returned to Ottawa as undelivered? Again, normally one should see that in the file but it is not there.

There is no Discharge certificate or medal entitlement card in the online file, as I would have expected, but that may or may not be unusual. I do not have lot of experience with RCAF casualty files.

His death was not a Training Accident except in the view that an Oxford Training aircraft and his Spitfire collided but he himself was Operational with 412 Sqn. A Flying Accident would be a better description as he had completed all training and was posted to an Operational Sqn.

Hope that helps.

regards
Darrell
__________________
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 17-09-20, 01:36 AM
Walt P's Avatar
Walt P Walt P is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ontario, CANADA
Posts: 160
Default

Please provide proof Bill.

Thanks,

Walt
__________________
🍁We Remember.🍁
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 17-09-20, 03:21 PM
Walt P's Avatar
Walt P Walt P is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ontario, CANADA
Posts: 160
Default

Darell,

Thank you for the detailed info. You stated " Pilot Officer Magee most certainly qualified for medals." Please qualify your statement. Upon researching P/O Mcgee's entitlement to awards, he did not qualify for any, due to his length of service. Please correct me if I am mistaken. Cheers,

Walt
__________________
🍁We Remember.🍁
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 18-09-20, 12:17 PM
Darrell's Avatar
Darrell Darrell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: New Brunswick
Posts: 433
Default

Hi Walt

Ummm, OK....pretty simple and obvious to me but if medals aren't your thing then I guess you would not see it as being so obvious as I do.

While I cannot, at this time, provide you with proof that Magee's family were sent anything other than a Memorial Bar and Memorial Cross, the criteria for the various medals that I mentioned above certainly allow for the reasoning of him earning them by his service. Not awarded to him personally, of course, as SWW service and Campaign medals did not get issued until after the war. Certainly "earned".

Here is a brief qualification summary for the medals that I mentioned.

39/45 Star - 180 days operational service overseas between 3 September 1939 and either 8 May 1945 in Europe or 2 September 1945 in the Far East theatre. Special criteria- The award of a gallantry medal or Mention in Dispatches qualified the recipient for the award of the 1939–1945 Star, regardless of service duration. Personnel whose qualifying service period was terminated prematurely by their death or disability due to service were awarded this Star.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939%E...%20this%20Star.

ACE Star -The Air Crew Europe Star was awarded for operational flying from bases in the United Kingdom over Europe from the outbreak of the Second World War on 3 September 1939 to 5 June 1944, the day before the D-Day Normandy Invasion, both dates inclusive.... Personnel whose required qualifying service period was terminated prematurely by their death, disability or wounding due to service, were awarded the Star regardless of service duration.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Crew_Europe_Star

CVSM - - the Medal may be awarded....posthumously, to the survivor of a person of any rank in the armed forces of Canada who voluntarily served on active service and was killed in action or died as a result of an injury or disease, or an aggravation thereof, that was attributable to or was incurred during such active service; para 5(1)(b) at:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/.../FullText.html

1939-1945 War Medal - ...for award to citizens of the British Commonwealth who had served full-time in the Armed Forces or the Merchant Navy for at least 28 days between 3 September 1939 and 2 September 1945....The medal was awarded to personnel whose required service period was terminated prematurely by death, disability due to service or capture as a prisoner-of-war and whose service qualified them for one of the Second World War Campaign Stars. Personnel who had received one of the Stars for service of less than 28 days were also awarded the War Medal 1939–1945...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Me...9%E2%80%931945

Clear? Happy to help you with any Q's that you may have.

You did say "...After much research, I've discovered that he did not qualify for any medals, given his very short time with the RCAF..." and I fail to see how you came to that conclusion given the clear criteria for each medal. He joined 10/10/40 and was killed in the UK 11/12/41. That's 14 months. May I ask you why you think that he did not qualify medals?

regards
Darrell
__________________
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"

Last edited by Darrell; 18-09-20 at 12:33 PM. Reason: clarity
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 18-09-20, 02:46 PM
Phillip Herring's Avatar
Phillip Herring Phillip Herring is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,281
Default

Reference page 12 of the file.
P/O Magee "...had been carrying out wing formation flying practice..."
Since the accident did not occur on active operations, would that have precluded P/O Magee's eligibility for medals for which he would not otherwise have met the time requirements?
__________________
Courtesy of The Canadian Forces:
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/index-eng.asp

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

Last edited by Phillip Herring; 18-09-20 at 02:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 18-09-20, 02:53 PM
Darrell's Avatar
Darrell Darrell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: New Brunswick
Posts: 433
Default

Hi Phillip

Medal entitlement for the CVSM and War Medal started when he joined, not when he went Operational. For the two stars, entitlement started when he joined 412 Sqn. His entitlement to the the 39/45 Star came upon his death as he did not have 180 days operational service but rather that he died in service while earning those 180 days. Ace was for 60 days flying ops and I think his time in 412 was enough but even if it wasn't, as I have said befoire in this thread, dying while earning it qualified one for it.

I think that Walt believes that somehow P/O Magee's service started in September 1941. This in incorrect.

I suspect Walt has misconstrued some of the date entries in the file, or elsewhere. The file is clear on his enlistment date. Magee "earned" or was "entitled" to the medals I mentioned. No doubt.

Did his kin receive them? Unknown but I'm just responding to Walt's assertion.

regards
Darrell
__________________
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"

Last edited by Darrell; 18-09-20 at 03:08 PM. Reason: to be repetitive, of course.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 18-09-20, 07:58 PM
Bill A's Avatar
Bill A Bill A is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 10,734
Default

I will echo Darrell. The time qualifications for the CVSM and War Medal were met. I don't see the entitlement for the ACE or 39/45 Star, as he was training and not operational.
__________________
Res ipsa loquitur
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 18-09-20, 08:03 PM
Bill A's Avatar
Bill A Bill A is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 10,734
Default

And reviewing this, I think he would also qualify for the Defence Medal. He was killed while training in the UK, but reviewing the criteria, I don't see the award time shortened by death of the individual.
__________________
Res ipsa loquitur
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 18-09-20, 10:35 PM
cefguy cefguy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Langley, BC
Posts: 272
Default

Bill:
If he was doing "operational training", then it was training done to maintain skills of an operational pilot. I have had the opportunity to look through a couple of WW2 bomber pilot's log books. They were almost perfect sets of threes. A trip of "Ops Belgium". The line after is often "ferrying replacement aircraft". The third line is something like "Wing formation training". Then the fourth line is "Ops Holland". The cycle just continues like that until the end.
Don
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 18-09-20, 11:34 PM
Artynut Artynut is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada.
Posts: 605
Default

Well,...... Still some part of the story missing but I think we can put the medals question to bed. It’s strange that I started this thread as a means to try to get answers not forthcoming in the thread under “Airforce” threads, concerning the unknown American’s ribbon bars displayed there. This “Magee” thread elicited more answers, especially the clarifications by Darrell. This last few days has taught me to be VERY careful when and what you read to support your ideas. I quoted “Blatherick’s book in one post but after checking the wording in the official Canadian site, Blatherwick did not expand in his written criteria concerning the CVSM. Further, when reading Darrell’s quotes from the official site concerning the War Medal, one could still believe that Magee was not entitled to this medal. ( Magee was NOT a commonwealth Citizen!) Thankfully, Darrell included the link back to the official site concerning this medal and further reading of the criteria states in essence that FOREIGN Nationals not awarded an equivalent medal from their own government WOULD be entitled to the commonwealth War Medal when having served the prescribed time in His Majesty’s Armed Forces. Thank you To all who contributed. With best regards, David J
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 19-09-20, 02:06 AM
Darrell's Avatar
Darrell Darrell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: New Brunswick
Posts: 433
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill A View Post
I will echo Darrell. The time qualifications for the CVSM and War Medal were met. I don't see the entitlement for the ACE or 39/45 Star, as he was training and not operational.
Hi Bill

No? I think Don has it. Magee was in an Operational Sqn (Big O) doing some training (Small t) and not In Training (Big I and Big T) at some Fighter or Heavy Conversion Unit. It really really matters.

39/45 Star and ACE entitlement. I've seen nothing at all to refute that. I've demonstrated that adequately.

RE the Defence Medal, I hadn't looked at that as an automatic award during qualification period. That would have begun for Magee when he stepped off the boat in the UK but only up until he went Operational. The Defence Medal was for service in the forces in non-operational areas subjected to air attack or closely threatened for at least three years service in Great Britain until 8th May 1945 or one year in territories overseas until 2 September 1945.....and on and on. Essentially for Cdns, 6 months for the non-operational Forces in the UK (a year in Nfld!). Our Army personnel earned it in droves as they remained non operational in the UK for years. Magee joined an Operational RCAF Fighter Sqn and I believe that his ability to count time towards a Defence Medal would have then stopped and his death would not have allowed to be earned even though that medal had that caveat. I'll admit that I'm not 100% sure on that at the moment, Air Force medal groups aren't my usual thing. Funny thing that Defence Medal.

David

I like medals so I learn as much as I can about them. I'll bet others here do the same thing with badges.
Good on you for asking questions about stuff.
For Magee, he may have been an American citizen but as a member of the RCAF, it was pretty much irrelevant to this discussion as his medals were earned, as you said, "...when having served the prescribed time in His Majesty’s Armed Forces..".

For what it's worth, I'll stand by the four medals I mentioned previously as Magee's entitlement and Mulligan the Def medal.

regards
Darrell
__________________
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 19-09-20, 11:53 AM
Bill A's Avatar
Bill A Bill A is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 10,734
Default

This is an excellent thread. Exactly what such Fora were intended to elicit.
Don, thanks for the insight. Darrel, I still think there may be wiggle room for the Defence. I have seen RCAF groups that have the Defence medal... need to dig into that more.
David, thanks for posting this provocative thread.
(We are off the focus of the Forum, but it has provided much information and education.)
__________________
Res ipsa loquitur
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:01 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.