"Grenade Fired Proper"

[grenadierguardsman]

Can any one tell me when the "Grenade Fired Proper" cap badge was first used or issued please.

[2747andy]

The 1st Regiment of Foot Guards were awarded the title "Grenadiers" by Royal Proclamation in 1815. An honour bestowed upon them for their defeat of Napoleon's Imperial Guard at the Battle of Waterloo. The Imperial Guard wore the Grenade as their insignia.

I am not sure when the "Grenade Fired Proper" was first adopted as a headdress insignia by the Grenadiers, however I suspect it would have been in the 1890's on the change from Scarlet Tunics to Khaki or whenever that happened?

Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Cheers Andy,
This one puzzles me, Kipling & King i believe states about 1896. I have the Regiment magazine October November issue 1994, and in it is a photo of some Grenadiers in various orders of dress, taken in 1863 in Canada. Wearing i believe the Grenade Fired Proper. I was wondering if there was an Army Order or Sealed Pattern information on this.
Andy

[grumpy]

my understanding of "proper" in this context, the heraldic one, means "in the correct colours". So are we talking about a cloth badge?

[grenadierguardsman]

No grumpy were not, were talking about the The Grenade Fired Proper of the Grenadier Guards. The First and finest Regiment of Foot Guards. Possibly the best Regiment in the British Army.
PS. Only a bit of Banter.

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

No grumpy were not, were talking about the The Grenade Fired Proper of the Grenadier Guards. The First and finest Regiment of Foot Guards. Possibly the best Regiment in the British Army.
PS. Only a bit of Banter.

strange mis-use of "proper" ........

Proper – Used in blazon to specify that a charge appears in its natural colors. "A zebra proper" has the zebra’s characteristic pattern of black and white stripes. "A tree proper" has a brown trunk and green leaves. Sometimes "proper" is used to indicate a standard set of tinctures for a standard heraldic charge, like "a sword proper", which has an argent blade and Or hilt and quillons, or "a rose proper", which is "a rose gules, barbed vert and seeded Or". The term "proper" should only be used to indicate colorings that cannot be described in the usual heraldic language. "A raven proper" is just "a raven sable". "Proper" should also only be used if a competent artist will be able to draw the animal correctly without extensive research.

SO ........ how do you describe the grenade on the Colours [which is indeed "proper"] if the gilding metal version is described as "proper"????????

[grenadierguardsman]

Good point. The Grenade Fired Proper with 17 Flames evolving from the centre was indeed taught to us on Regimental shinning parades. I supposed it just stuck, until a few years ago i noticed that the Grenade Fired Proper did not necessary have 17 flames. So from then on myself and many others have called it The Grenade Fired Proper.
Cheers

[john badge]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Good point. The Grenade Fired Proper with 17 Flames evolving from the centre was indeed taught to us on Regimental shinning parades. I supposed it just stuck, until a few years ago i noticed that the Grenade Fired Proper did not necessary have 17 flames. So from then on myself and many others have called it The Grenade Fired Proper.
Cheers

Thank you sir for leave to speak. So a 'grenade fired proper' is an olive green orb with seventeen red flames?

[grumpy]

No. The one on the Colours has a black body with grey highlights and .... flame coloured flames!

Gentlemen,

Not wishing to add fuel to the flames here (ha!), but perhaps in this instance the term 'proper' is not being used in an heraldic sense. Perhaps it is an old fashioned way of saying 'grenade fully alight, or, 'grenade in full flame'.

Just a thought.

Peter.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Peter J

Gentlemen,

Not wishing to add fuel to the flames here (ha!), but perhaps in this instance the term 'proper' is not being used in an heraldic sense. Perhaps it is an old fashioned way of saying 'genade fully alight, or, 'grenade in full flame'.

Just a thought.

Peter.

Well said Peter, I too believe that is its original meaning.

It should also not be forgotten that the term Grenadier long predates the titling of the 1st Regt of Foot Guards as such. Each infantry battalion (Guards and Line) had a Grenadier company on its Right Flank and a Light Company on its Left Flank. The Grenadier Company were in effect assault troops of the battalion and generally formed from the 'best made up' men (as in physique and height). In the 18th C it was common for these companies to be 'brigaded' into Grenadier Battalions and their appearance was marked by the wearing of Fur Caps and Grenades Fired Proper, usually in white embroidery on red or blue, but also painted upon their cartouche boxes. In the American 'War of Independence' (or 'Revolution' depending on which side of the Atlantic you are from), several of the Line Regiments Grenadier companies did not see their parent battalions for years on end.

Apart from Grenadier companies, the only soldiers to wear Fur Caps (usually of part bearskin) were the entire battalions of Fusiliers who, because they were accoutred like Grenadiers, also took to the wearing of Grenades Fired Proper (later with varying numbers of flames), as well as, initially, the white feather plumes that were/are also associated with Grenadiers (which were retained by all three of the original Fusilier regiments -7th, 21st and 23rd - now commemorated in the Royal Welsh and the RHF battalion of the Royal Regiment of Scotland).

As an interesting footnote, when the 1st Foot Guards were re-named as Grenadiers for the reason already stated, this honour could not be accorded to the 2nd and 3rd Foot Guards as they were not included. Nevertheless, there was a clear desirability that they should wear the same head dress as their fellow guardsmen and this was achieved by the artifice of renaming both regiments for a varying period as "Fusilier Guards". The Coldstream kept this nomenclature for only as short a time as was deemed proper and following dire confusion at the Battle the Alma, when an order was given that "Fusiliers Retire", this secondary part of the title was finally dropped by the 'Jocks' also.

[grumpy]

It prompts the question, "who introduced the term GFP in the first place"? Doesn't sound like your average Grenadier Trained Soldier at a shining parade, does it? I will have a look tomorrow in the several books/ booklets I have on Guards Colours to see if the term is used therein in an heraldic sense.

An intriguing subject.

Originally Posted by grumpy

An intriguing subject.

Grumpy,

I completely agree, and hope you manage to track down a definitive answer.

PJ

[grenadierguardsman]

Now steady on Tiger, average trained Soldier at shinning parade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I did`nt know that trained Soldiers did shinning parades, only recruits. I certainly did`nt do any shinning parades as a Guardsman or even a trained Soldier, did`nt need supervising bulling boots after a year of training.

[grumpy]

In my ignorance I thought the Trained Soldier supervised and taught such parades. Somebody must have been in charge.