Patina ?

[grenadierguardsman]

Chaps
I have these two Grenades, and was wondering why they are more redish/orange in colour than the rest of my collection ? The majority are a yellowish colour. I don't know if you can see this from my pictures, done my best. Is it patina ?
Many thanks
Andy

[Frank Kelley]

Remove any patination and you are left with the metal itself, I think it rather depends upon the mixture used, I would think that orange suggests a little more copper content, when manufacturing the metal.

[seanhath]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Remove any patination and you are left with the metal itself, I think it rather depends upon the mixture used, I would think that orange suggests a little more copper content, when manufacturing the metal.

Frank is spot on here IMO.
I’ve got a few older badges that have this same warmer colour.
Cheers,
Sean

[grenadierguardsman]

Thanks chaps.
Andy

[GTB]

There were no attachments!

GTB

[Toby Purcell]

I’ve read somewhere that older badges were more yellowish because of a greater proportion of zinc to copper (often called ‘candlestick brass’), and a more reddish hue was caused by a greater proportion of copper to zinc. Apparently the latter was cheaper, but I imagine that varied according to the market conditions over time. Certainly the yellower badges are generally older.

P.S. Good to see the VR badge with the earlier pattern of grenade, whose shape I believe originated with the cartridge box. Can you show a full size image of the badge and cap upon which it sits?

[grenadierguardsman]

Here you go Toby
Andy

[KLR]

Toby recollects correctly ! Brass had given way to GM in 1897 which the War Office defined it as 86.7% copper and 13.3% zinc by weight. This is a much higher copper content than brass. It may be therefore, the “1897 generation” had a more reddish patina ?
Reference RACD Pattern 4480/1897 (TNA WO 359/6, 336)


I leave it to the metallurgists !

[grenadierguardsman]

Thanks KLR, very interesting.
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Thanks Andy and KLR. The cap is a full sergeant’s pattern, as I thought.

[leigh kitchen]

I hear talk of patina, badge, cap - and yet I see nothing....... 's a mystery.........

[Bill]

High copper content was used if gilt or flame gilt was to be applied.
I can't see any images in the post (?) but are there traces of gilt anywhere?
Cheers
Bill

[Bill]

Can you please post the images? Bill