Questions on the different Cap Badge colours of the South Wales Borderers?

[Forester93]

Hi, does anyone know why there are three different types of cap badges for the South Wales Borderers?

1. 34C4C47D-3286-4C66-9488-72FD5F957998.jpg. 2.A8EE1CF5-562F-4A65-8562-ABD095F4801C.jpg 3.19F76BA6-2DB9-4061-B854-A320B5BDA945.jpg

The first one seems to be all brass and the second seems painted bronze with a silver inner. I thought maybe it is to do with the timeline however apparently it is very hard to distinguish between WWI and WWII because the Cap Badge and casting tools did not change. With both badges the owners are claiming they are from WWI but I think that’s hard to trust.

Attached is also a third blacked out version, I know a lot of regiments did this during WWI and WWII however in the present day regiments also black out cap badges for when they’re out in the field, not knowing when this became common practice I can’t date this design.

The regiment began in the 1600’s and I’ve seen reference to a similar design to the cap badge on a plaque dated 1840(s) so does anyone have any information on when the design first because issued.

Sorry this is very long but I am interested in the history of The South Wales Borderers badges and know very little.

Cheers.

[Alan O]

The cap badge was worn from 1896 and repalced the LH collar that was initially worn on the Field Service Cap.

The all brass on lugs is not a genuine period cap badge.

Likewise any black one is not correct. Your picture shows a Bronze officer's one on blades.

There were officers bronze badges and bi-metal other ranks ones. The only other issued badges were the WW2 plastic and the rare 1960's a/a.

Alan

[Frank Kelley]

Number one is a rank and file Great War economy, although if lugged spurious, number two is rank and file bi metal and number three is Officers SD, the regiment had a truly bewildering array of cap badges in differing sizes too.

[gb64]

Originally Posted by Forester93

Hi, does anyone know why there are three different types of cap badges for the South Wales Borderers?

1. Attachment 216582. 2.Attachment 216583 3.Attachment 216584

The first one seems to be all brass and the second seems painted bronze with a silver inner. I thought maybe it is to do with the timeline however apparently it is very hard to distinguish between WWI and WWII because the Cap Badge and casting tools did not change. With both badges the owners are claiming they are from WWI but I think that’s hard to trust.

Attached is also a third blacked out version, I know a lot of regiments did this during WWI and WWII however in the present day regiments also black out cap badges for when they’re out in the field, not knowing when this became common practice I can’t date this design.

The regiment also began in the 1600’s and I’ve seen reference to a similar design to the cap badge on a plaque dated 1840(s) so does anyone have any information on when the design first because issued.

Sorry this is very long but I am interested in the history of The South Wales Borderers badges and know very little.

Cheers.

Hi Forester93
With regards to the cap badges the first one is the 1916 brass economy badge, although the one you show isn’t a genuine one unfortunately, the second is the standard other ranks bi metal cap badge and the third is an officers bronzed cap badge for the Service Dress Cap.


Gerard

[Forester93]

Alan O:
That date 1896 is very interesting, I always thought cap badges involving a Sphinx came from early 1800’s and not late. Do you know if the Sphinx design came from a battle?

Frank Kelley + gb64:
Thank you for the information and telling me of the fake badge, I’m looking to purchase one so you’ve helped me avoiding a bad buy.

[mike_vee]

Originally Posted by Forester93

Do you know if the Sphinx design came from a battle?

Pure guesswork (and Google) :

As the 24th (The 2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot they were deployed to Egypt in the aftermath of the Battle of Abukir in March 1801.

Also , the plaque you mention in your first post is in Canada , and shows Sphinx and Egypt scroll.

Plaque 24th Regiment of Foot in Quebec, Canada, dating to 1840

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by Forester93

Alan O:
That date 1896 is very interesting, I always thought cap badges involving a Sphinx came from early 1800’s and not late. Do you know if the Sphinx design came from a battle?

Frank Kelley + gb64:
Thank you for the information and telling me of the fake badge, I’m looking to purchase one so you’ve helped me avoiding a bad buy.

The specific cap badge design dates from 1896 as before that they wore a glengarry badge which had some of the same symbology but a different design of badge. The SWB's welsh connection resulted from the Army Reforms in the 1880s. Before that they were numbered without the specific geographic connection.

[Forester93]

Originally Posted by Alan O

The specific cap badge design dates from 1896 as before that they wore a glengarry badge which had some of the same symbology but a different design of badge. The SWB's welsh connection resulted from the Army Reforms in the 1880s. Before that they were numbered without the specific geographic connection.

Very interesting, thank you.

[Frank Kelley]

Well, certainly lots of original examples out there still to be had, often for very little, I bought this, very typical example from a provincial antique centre in North Wales last October whilst trying to get at the last little bit of summer for ten quid.

Originally Posted by Forester93

Frank Kelley + gb64:
Thank you for the information and telling me of the fake badge, I’m looking to purchase one so you’ve helped me avoiding a bad buy.

[Toby Purcell]

The Sphinx was indeed awarded for the 24th’s part in the Battle of Alexandria, 1801, along with a great many other British infantry regiments, including Foot Guards, so that the Sphinx became one of the earliest common battle emblems placed on regimental insignia. While it’s true that there was no association with Wales within the title, the then itinerant regimental depot had been in Brecon, and thus recruiting Welshmen, for a few years before that. Before the July 1881 reforms the 24th still held its meaningless geographical title as one of two regiments allocated to Warwickshire. The 6th being first Warwickshire and the 24th second Warwickshire, as part of County associations decreed across the line infantry in 1782.