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  #1  
Old 01-01-20, 02:53 PM
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Default 15th loodianah Sikhs Pagri Badge "Date"

Hi my fellow badgers,
Picked this pagri badge up the other week, I thought it going to be dated to around 1900 but when it arrived and I'd actually looked at it in the flesh, I think it seems to be older than I first thought. Could someone with a bit more knowledge than me tell me what sort of date it could actually be please.
Cheers.

Kev.
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File Type: jpg D.jpg (84.8 KB, 28 views)
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  #2  
Old 02-01-20, 02:41 PM
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Hi Kev

Your badge is actually illustrated in Ashok Nath's Sowars and Sepoys and the book depicts the badges worn in WW1. It's also shown in Cox. The fact that it has a Victorian crown would not in itself preclude it being worn in WW1 - but you might also be spot on in that it might be earlier. Tim
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Old 02-01-20, 04:27 PM
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Thanks Tim for the info, I know they were also known as the 15th Ludhiana Sikhs, but I don't know when they changed from the loodianah Sikhs to the Ludhiana Sikhs and if the name was changed on the badges.

Kev.
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Old 02-01-20, 05:27 PM
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Hi Kev - both the Cox and Nath photos show your spelling of Loodianah - so I don't think your badge is an earlier version but the badge gives a "nod" to their origins in 1846, when they were known as the Regiment of Ludhiana (or the Loodiana Regiment. Tim
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  #5  
Old 02-01-20, 06:06 PM
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Maybe contact "Sikhs In The Army" via their website :

http://www.sikhsinthearmy.co.uk/army-badges/4545978821

Link is to displays of badges including 15th Loodianah

Also found photo on another site of other spelling/badge.

http://indiaww1.in/militaria.aspx
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  #6  
Old 03-01-20, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keflin2612 View Post
Thanks Tim for the info, I know they were also known as the 15th Ludhiana Sikhs, but I don't know when they changed from the loodianah Sikhs to the Ludhiana Sikhs and if the name was changed on the badges.

Kev.
I was reading this with some misunderstanding because I have never heard of Ioodiana. I thought you mistyped a lowercase "l" instead of and uppercase "L" in your thread title.

Do I now understand that you read the first character on the scroll of your very fine picture if the beautiful badge as "I"? I read it as a clearly "L".

BTW, the different spellings of the same pronunciation Loodhiana/Ludhiana. I have no idea when the designation and/or scrolls where adapted to the then usual spelling. But I have seen pictures of a badge with a scroll reading Ludhiana. The badge is a bit different, it is has a (smaller) Quoit with XV within and the scroll attached below and a KC above.
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Last edited by Wmr-RHB; 03-01-20 at 11:18 AM. Reason: mistuped XIV for XV
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Old 03-01-20, 11:11 AM
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Chronology
1846 formed as Regiment of Ludhiana
1861 became 15th Bengal Native Infantry
1864 became 15th (Ludhiana) Regiment of Bengal Native Infantry
1885 became 15th Regiment of Bengal Native Infantry (Ludhiana Sikhs)
1901 became 15th (Ludhiana) Sikh Infantry
1903 became 15th Ludhiana Sikhs
1922 became 2nd Bn/11th Sikh Regiment
1947 allocated to India on Partition

Corresponding items on Sikh website
1846-1864 15th Loodianah Regiment belt buckle/clasp.
1885-1922 15th Loodianah Sikhs Officers Pagri Badge (silver)


Interestingly ww1cemetaries shows headstones featuring both spellings and different badges.

https://www.ww1cemeteries.com/r-b-indian-regiments.html
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File Type: jpg xv-royal-ludhiana-sikhs_orig.jpg (75.8 KB, 5 views)
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  #8  
Old 03-01-20, 11:26 AM
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The second headstone is very strange, because the regiment never was "Royal".

In my opinion the word "Native" should be dropped from the 1885 designation in the list given above. In 1885 the word "Native" was dropped from all the designations as thought to be improprer

This is a badge picture I have (as described earlier in this thread):
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  #9  
Old 03-01-20, 11:30 AM
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BTW, the lineage of this battalion and the other battalions of the 11th Sikh Regiment can be seen here:
https://hcvv.home.xs4all.nl/milweb/B...try/inf11.html
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  #10  
Old 03-01-20, 03:46 PM
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Thanks guys for all your help, as always everybody rally's round, that's what makes this forum one of the best there is.
Cheers.

Kev.
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  #11  
Old 03-01-20, 05:15 PM
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Loodianah is fine. That is also the spelling used for the city in books/references in the mid to late 19th century.
There are also mutiny medals named to the Regiment of Loodianah which later was 15th Sikhs.

Similarly, the 14th Sikhs were the Regiment of Ferozepore. ..later spelling Ferozpur.
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  #12  
Old 03-01-20, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khyber View Post
Loodianah is fine. That is also the spelling used for the city in books/references in the mid to late 19th century.
There are also mutiny medals named to the Regiment of Loodianah which later was 15th Sikhs.

Similarly, the 14th Sikhs were the Regiment of Ferozepore. ..later spelling Ferozpur.
So if there were Indian Mutiny Medals named to the Regiment of 'Loodianah' this could make the Pagri Badge earlier than 1900 and potentially 1857-58 "maybe"
"he say's, clasping at straws"

Kev.
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  #13  
Old 04-01-20, 03:05 AM
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No Kev, not exactly. These badges were definitely not around during the Mutiny and in the years immediately afterwards. I think the practise of Indian regiments wearing insignia such as Pagri badges and shoulder titles began probably in the 1880s, though the British officers who commanded them did wear them, but they were mosly helmet badges. Need to check up on this. I'm speaking from my experience of Indian Cavy badges and I guess that applied to the infantry as well.
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  #14  
Old 04-01-20, 09:58 AM
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Nice one, thanks for the info
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  #15  
Old 04-01-20, 10:51 AM
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Default 15Th Sikhs

[QUOTE=keflin2612;496108]Hi my fellow badgers,
Picked this pagri badge up the other week, I thought it going to be dated to around 1900 but when it arrived and I'd actually looked at it in the flesh, I think it seems to be older than I first thought. Could someone with a bit more knowledge than me tell me what sort of date it could actually be please.
Cheers.

HI Keflin, Sorry to say this, but the badge does not look right or correct , it is most likely a copy. The examples I have seen of this badge is that they were die struck and the fittings at the back are different. I took the liberty of sending these images to an expert who is not a member of this forum and he has also confirmed that it is not an authentic badge. Piffer
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