1st Airborne Div Signals Bullion Beret badge 1943

[Chris Walker]

To all you Airborne and Para Regiment buffs can anyone help me please.

I am trying to find a decent photograph of any Royal Signals Officer's beret bullion badge dating from 1943 to 1946/47 when the current design Royal Signals badge came into being.

I have attached a photo (Not very good I am afraid) of Royal Signals officers of 1st Airborne Div. Signals taken in March 1943 at Bulford Camp.

All the Officers are wearing the Bullion badge which is similar to todays design but would have a Kings Crown. You can quite clearly see that all the Officers are wearing a set of Bronze Signals badges which are the 1921-46 roundal type. I was suprised to see a different cap badge. Early for its time. I am advised that the backing of the badge would be Maroon just like the Signals Officers of 216 Sig Sqn wear today.

I wonder if any one can provide me with a picture of this badge from their own collection (In colour if at all possible) or even a black and which photo that can be reproduced for me to use in my little collection of Signals badges.

I very much hope there is some one in the Forum who has one of these and would allow me to reproduce it.

With my very best wishes

Chris Walker
www.signalsbadges.co.uk

[Rob Miller]

Hi Chris

Here is a photo of Lt.-Col. T.G.V.Stephenson,OBE, 1st Airborne Divisional Signals.

The photo is from a book so I can't tell you who owns the copyright though.

Regards Rob.

[Phillip Herring]

This is interesting since in another thread, it was mentioned that the incorrect cap badges were worn by signallers in the film "A Bridge too Far".
It looks like the crown/Mercury/motto badge is correct for officers.
Did non-commissioned ranks belonging to airborne signals wear the oval badge, or a crown/Mercury/motto badge similar to the officers?

Phil

[Alan O]

They wore the standard oval badge.

[NEMO]

Nice photo Chris , is that Anthony Dean drumond in the middle back row ?

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by Rob Miller

Hi Chris

Here is a photo of Lt.-Col. T.G.V.Stephenson,OBE, 1st Airborne Divisional Signals.

The photo is from a book so I can't tell you who owns the copyright though.

Regards Rob.

Is the image dated, as that badge (I believe) came into use in 1947?

Marc

[Rob Miller]

Hi Marc

It doesn't say when it was taken.

But this picture has to be from September 1944, it shows Major Lonsdale receiving a light from Lt. D.A.Polley of No.1 Company, Divisional Headquarters Signals after crossing the Rhine.

Rob.

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by Rob Miller

Hi Marc

It doesn't say when it was taken.

But this picture has to be from September 1944, it shows Major Lonsdale receiving a light from Lt. D.A.Polley of No.1 Company, Divisional Headquarters Signals after crossing the Rhine.

Rob.

And after just reading a few bits and pieces on the Officers badge, this one being the unofficial but worn version. It seems there are a few different years for the change of the metal badge.

Marc

[Chris Walker]

Dear Marc, Phillip and Rob

Very many thanks for coming back so quickly regarding photos of Royal Signals Officers wearing what I call a very early and I assume unofficial Bullion Beret Badges.

I may well have been the person who started another Thread where I was very sceptical about the version of Signals Beret Badge being worn by two Signals Officers in the film "A Bridge Too Far.

I thought that it was a production error. I now stand corrected. This badge was worn well before the 1946/47 design badge was introduced.

To answer Phillips question I have attached a photo taken in 1944 of King George inspecting Royal Signals troop of 1st Airborne Div all who seem to be OR's wearing the "Badge of the day" on their Maroon berets.

I do not understand why Officer's of the time all seem to have worn the Bullion badge without the roundal. However, there are now enough photos in this little thread to prove they did.

I have in my little collection a couple of early Bullion badges which look very similar to the one Lt Col Stephenson OBE is wearing but they have a dark blue backing not Maroon. Same design with no Globe for Jimmy to stand on and they do indeed have Kings Crowns. I have always thought of these to be Unofficial and they both came off of Caps FS (Officers Pattern) not berets.

The only Maroon version of this badge I know of is shown in Major A. G. Harfields OBE's book Headdress and Embellishments of the Royal Corps of Signals. This appears in a black and white photo on page 40 and is Figure 51. I assume this is in the Royal Signals Museum who I have written to some time ago and unfortunately am still awating a reply !!!!!!!

I thank you all for your input and very much hope someone can come up with a coloured version photo of this badge.

With my kind regards and thanks

Chris Walker
www.signalsbadges.co.uk

[Phillip Herring]

Originally Posted by Rob Miller

Hi Marc

It doesn't say when it was taken.

But this picture has to be from September 1944, it shows Major Lonsdale receiving a light from Lt. D.A.Polley of No.1 Company, Divisional Headquarters Signals after crossing the Rhine.

Rob.

Is this badge definitely embroidered? It looks a bit like the central device from the busby plume holder.

Phil

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by Chris Walker

I do not understand why Officer's of the time all seem to have worn the Bullion badge without the roundal.
I have always thought of these to be Unofficial and they both came off of Caps FS (Officers Pattern) not berets.

Food for thought:
The maroon beret was the first beret to be worn by many different regiments and corps, the amount of different badges officially worn on the black beret, the only beret worn before the maroon one, was significantly smaller.
There was a war going on and winning it was more important than sticking to the regulations. Airborne initiative (ABI) was valued, as was the ability to take care of oneself, creating a climate where individuality wasn't frowned upon.
The coloured FS cap was an unofficial item, and introduced unofficial bullion badges to quite a few regiments and corps. Officers bought their own clothing anyway.
The regular metal badge was in some cases deemed too large or impractical for the beret, e.g. OBLI, who wore a collar/shoulder badge, RASC officers who wore an OR's collar badge or a bullion badge, intended for the coloured FS cap, but on a maroon background. As long as all officers in the same unit wore the same type and size badge.
Airborne signals officers adapted the unofficial bullion coloured FS cap badge for the maroon beret.
I haven't seen a bullion Signals badge on a maroon background yet. Better quality photo's of Airborne signals officers suggest a darker badge background than the maroon beret, could it be that the badge worn on the maroon beret had the same dark blue background as on the coloured FS cap?

Rgds,
Thomas.

[Chris Walker]

Dear Thomas

Thanks for coming back with an interesting addition to the wearing of Bullion badges on Berets.

I have no problem what so ever with other Corps or Regiments wearing Bullion badges whether they were Official or Unofficial. Indeed I agree it must have happened.

My only original request was for a photo of a Signal Officers wearing a badge that to all intensive purposes was ahead of it's time. I have since been proved wrong and I am delighted to admit this especially with some of the photos that have turned up in this thread. I am delighgted.

Like you Thomas I have never seen an actual Maroon backed Royal Signals
beret badge as shown in the photos above. I wish I had.

As I have been given permission by Picton Publishing some years ago to use information from Major Harfords Book. I thought you might like to see what I have been looking for and the small write up that goes with it. There is no copyright infringement. Not too clear I am afraid as I have only a small scanner to operate with.

The write up to go with the attached photo is:-

"Embroidered cap badges, officers pattern.
An embroidered officers cap badge on a maroon cloth background. 54mm high by 45mm wide at the point of the motto 'Certa Cito' (Figure 51). Worn by Royal Signals officers serving with the Airborne Forces."

The attached photo if you look closely does look very similar, especially the backing, to the one that Lt Col Stephenson OBE is wearing in the above photo.

This is the only photo of the Maroon backed Signals badge I have ever seen that is not affixed to a beret. Hence the request for a coloured photo of one.

Hope this clears up a small point regarding backing.

I am currently having problems downloading the attachment. I will submit this reply and try and send the attachment seperately.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Chris Walker
www.signalsbadges.co.uk

[Chris Walker]

Hopefully the attachement will now work.

Lets try !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Success I think but not too clear.

The shape is the same at Lt Col Stephensons.

Cheers

Chris Walker
www.signalsbadges.co.uk

[Phillip Herring]

Great information. From the description, it sounds like quite a large badge. Especially compared to the modern embroidered badges of similar pattern.

Phil

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by Chris Walker

Hopefully the attachement will now work.

Lets try !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Success I think but not too clear.

The shape is the same at Lt Col Stephensons.

Cheers

Chris Walker
www.signalsbadges.co.uk

Thanks Chris, I have both the book and an identical bullion on dark blue badge.

Rgds,
Thomas.