Maori badge ?

[saumua]

Period photos dont really help...... never seem to be clear enough to show shape of crown or even wording e.g. NZ versus NZNC. Really conclusions need to be logically derived. Geo T White designed the badge but it looks like they were never delivered before they left or possibly ever.....

The Pioneers versus Cook Island Contingent is another unclear picture although Noel and Howard who are researching the Cook Islanders have come to a derived conclusion on this.

When you say the FIJI badge are you refering to the badge made by George Spieghts grandfarther and referenced in Christine L's book?

Shaun

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Heres an original example of the so-called “B” Company badge. (Note that it is clealy die stamped)
Also Note – very good copies of this badge (solid backs) with very similar metal colouring as Jims Badge are currently also offered on our NZ auction site “Trade-me”.





Brent

[atillathenunns]

[QUOTE] “From what I have seen the copies on trademe from Invercagill seem to have the rounder crown not the imperial crown like this example.”

You could be right there, as when I checked, the seller does not have some listed at the moment. (It is good to see he is listing them as repros)

[QUOTE] “Period photos dont really help...... never seem to be clear enough to show shape of crown or even wording e.g. NZ versus NZNC.

Difficult I know, but will still try to find this out for myself. Fortunately I have the list of the original Maori Contingent Headquarters Staff, and A & B Company officers.
I am hoping that these being officers will have better photographic details. Failing that I will resort to NCOs and then privates.

[QUOTE] “Really conclusions need to be logically derived.”

All my information has been obtained from historical documents. (All pre 1920)
I guess I am lucky living so close to the National Archives.

[QUOTE] “Geo T White designed the badge but it looks like they were never delivered before they left or possibly ever.”

Sorry, Geo T White did not design the original badge (NZNC at bottom).
Perhaps you mean, he was the maker of a badge with NZ at the bottom, its design being adopted from the previously issued NZNC badge.

[QUOTE] “When you say the FIJI badge are you refering to the badge made by George Spieghts grandfarther and referenced in Christine L's book?”

I have not read this book, any chance of posting a picture of the Spieghts badge or a description, so I can answer your question.

Cheers
Brent

[pukman]

Someone mentioned the chap from Invercargill with the copy Maori Batallion badge, It has made my blood boil.I have had dealings with this chap before and he is ''bad'' .So avoid at all cost.I didn't mention the DCM he was medal mounting in a group for an old lady that he tried to sell and replace with a replica.And thats not the worst unfortunately .....

[saumua]

Brent PM or email me and I will provide photos for you.

National Archives have a letter on display right now (I have a scan on my PC I can send you now) which shows the design of the badge and discussing improvements from Geo T White. The letter is dated October 29th 1914. The original design is for the NZMC (New Zealand Maori Contingent) which is a strangely flowery badge.

There is also a picture of suggested alternate design with NZMC at the bottom (yes M not N). There is an inked correction as well as an approval where the M is changed to a N (New Zealand Native Contingent). The original order was 750 badges at two shillings each.

I have been told by other researches that there is documentation showing was some disquiet as the badges that were ordered by the Contingent followed the Contingent to Malta and were never received.

The photos of the Contingent in Auckland Feb 1915 show they are wearing badges but nearly all photos in Wellington with the boats show no badges. WATTS of Auckland badges are the rarest and are most likely to have been supplied the battalion for the Queen St parade early February 1915 (including round collars).

From what I have seen the original officers wore a variety of badges - Buck wore a Medical Badge and Pakeha wore their corps badge.


Shaun

[QUOTE=atillathenunns;37698][QUOTE] “From what I have seen the copies on trademe from Invercagill seem to have the rounder crown not the imperial crown like this example.”

You could be right there, as when I checked, the seller does not have some listed at the moment. (It is good to see he is listing them as repros)

[QUOTE] “Period photos dont really help...... never seem to be clear enough to show shape of crown or even wording e.g. NZ versus NZNC.

Difficult I know, but will still try to find this out for myself. Fortunately I have the list of the original Maori Contingent Headquarters Staff, and A & B Company officers.
I am hoping that these being officers will have better photographic details. Failing that I will resort to NCOs and then privates.

[QUOTE] “Really conclusions need to be logically derived.”

All my information has been obtained from historical documents. (All pre 1920)
I guess I am lucky living so close to the National Archives.

[QUOTE] “Geo T White designed the badge but it looks like they were never delivered before they left or possibly ever.”

Sorry, Geo T White did not design the original badge (NZNC at bottom).
Perhaps you mean, he was the maker of a badge with NZ at the bottom, its design being adopted from the previously issued NZNC badge.

“When you say the FIJI badge are you refering to the badge made by George Spieghts grandfarther and referenced in Christine L's book?”

I have not read this book, any chance of posting a picture of the Spieghts badge or a description, so I can answer your question.

Cheers
Brent

[saumua]

Yes mate I know all the stories and have seen many files on this character.......

Originally Posted by pukman

Someone mentioned the chap from Invercargill with the copy Maori Batallion badge, It has made my blood boil.I have had dealings with this chap before and he is ''bad'' .So avoid at all cost.I didn't mention the DCM he was medal mounting in a group for an old lady that he tried to sell and replace with a replica.And thats not the worst unfortunately .....

[saumua]

The original badge was designed and made by Auckland Educated Roy Speight grandfather of the infamous George. He was a jeweller in Suva.

[atillathenunns]

[QUOTE] # National Archives have a letter on display right now (I have a scan on my PC I can send you now) which shows the design of the badge and discussing improvements from Geo T White. The letter is dated October 29th 1914. The original design is for the NZMC (New Zealand Maori Contingent) which is a strangely flowery badge.

Having examined the scan (A letter of tender to supply) that Shaun has sent me, it is very clear that Geo T White did not produce the original design.


[QUOTE] # There is also a picture of suggested alternate design with NZMC at the bottom (yes M not N). There is an inked correction as well as an approval where the M is changed to a N (New Zealand Native Contingent).

I do agree with Shaun that Geo T White did do the final modifications to the design and most likely was the original supplier of the very first NZNC badges.
A description of the NZNC badge, dated 16th February 1915, says the badge was made of bronze.
This description combined with the sketch from Geo T White, suggests to me that the badge we refer to as the “B Company badge” is indeed the first badge worn by the 1st Maori Contingent. (Photographic evidence will be required to support this).


[QUOTE] # The original order was 750 badges at two shillings each.

750 is an interesting number. If divided into 3 for cap and collars, this would be enough for 250 men. (This would not be enough for 500 men + 18 officers of the 1st Maori Contingent).
I can only speculate that the original order was intended to be used only as hat badges.


[QUOTE] # I have been told by other researches that there is documentation showing was some disquiet as the badges that were ordered by the Contingent followed the Contingent to Malta and were never received.

This may be true, but I highly doubt it applies to the 1st Maori Contingent.
Possibly this may have been the case of the 2nd Maori Contingent (1st Maori Reinforcements)?


[QUOTE] # The photos of the Contingent in Auckland Feb 1915 show they are wearing badges but nearly all photos in Wellington with the boats show no badges.

If the 1st Maori Contingent had the badges in Auckland, it is pretty obvious they would have worn them during their “Parade” through Wellington on the 13th February 1915.
A description dated 16th February 1915, - “A special badge for the occasion, which has been, cast in bronze, and is now being worn by members of the Maori Contingent on the front of their helmets. The side badges of red and black cloth worn by the Maori soldiers on their helmets are the Maori colours.”


[QUOTE] # WATTS of Auckland badges are the rarest and are most likely to have been supplied the battalion for the Queen St parade early February 1915 (including round collars).

The 2nd Maori Contingent (1st Maori Reinforcements, approx 340 men) was a much smaller group compared to the 1st Contingent.
I wonder, could this be where the Watts badges fit in?


[QUOTE] # From what I have seen the original officers wore a variety of badges - Buck wore a Medical Badge and Pakeha wore their corps badge.

Captain Peter Buck was in fact the 1st Maori Contingent’s appointed Medical officer.
Buck and Reverend Wainohu Wopiha (The contingents appointed Chaplain) were not part of the Contingents HQ Staff and A & B Companies.
The 2nd Lieutenants were all Maoris as per Government decision.

[saumua]

Do you have the item number for this badge?

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Interesting that you mention the fake Pioneers badge. Just last week an early copy (Solid cast) Pioneers badge sold on our local auction site “Trade-me” for $205 (New Zealand dollars). This was after Iain and I had posted warning comments as to its authenticity.

[atillathenunns]

Shaun, you’re a bit late to bid on it as the auction has finished.

Sorry, I couldn’t help myself.
It was one of about 13 “old school” solid cast fake NZ badges (majority of which were common NZ badges) that were sold by the same seller.

I would post the link, but after a warning from the admin team about copyright infringement, I feel I have already pushed the boundaries by posting a photo.

Brent

[saumua]

I guess without clear photographic evidence we are speculating. I have not found a picture clear enough to support any conclusions. One thing that I think is clear is that the Dave Corbett view of A, B and C compnay is probably incorrect. Geoff Oldham just reprinted what Dave has said.

I will talk to some other collectors to see if anyone has seen any other White made badges that we can use to compare construction methods (so far havent found anyone who has seen any as they mainly are know for their medals).

From what I have seen WATTS made badges early in Ww1 for only a few other units and because of quality were not used again. The round WATTS collars are the rarest Maori badge so it is possible they were made for the REOs in very small quanities as the REOs went through Narrow Neck in Auckland.

If the bronze description is correct and the crown shape is true to the approved design then I guess I am correcting my view on what was 1st pattern. I will think overnight on this.

I will email you a picture of a genuine MB WW1 uniform - not many arround (if any). Belonged to the CSM Cook island Contingent.


[QUOTE=atillathenunns;37814][QUOTE] # National Archives have a letter on display right now (I have a scan on my PC I can send you now) which shows the design of the badge and discussing improvements from Geo T White. The letter is dated October 29th 1914. The original design is for the NZMC (New Zealand Maori Contingent) which is a strangely flowery badge.

Having examined the scan (A letter of tender to supply) that Shaun has sent me, it is very clear that Geo T White did not produce the original design.


[QUOTE] # There is also a picture of suggested alternate design with NZMC at the bottom (yes M not N). There is an inked correction as well as an approval where the M is changed to a N (New Zealand Native Contingent).

I do agree with Shaun that Geo T White did do the final modifications to the design and most likely was the original supplier of the very first NZNC badges.
A description of the NZNC badge, dated 16th February 1915, says the badge was made of bronze.
This description combined with the sketch from Geo T White, suggests to me that the badge we refer to as the “B Company badge” is indeed the first badge worn by the 1st Maori Contingent. (Photographic evidence will be required to support this).


[QUOTE] # The original order was 750 badges at two shillings each.

750 is an interesting number. If divided into 3 for cap and collars, this would be enough for 250 men. (This would not be enough for 500 men + 18 officers of the 1st Maori Contingent).
I can only speculate that the original order was intended to be used only as hat badges.


[QUOTE] # I have been told by other researches that there is documentation showing was some disquiet as the badges that were ordered by the Contingent followed the Contingent to Malta and were never received.

This may be true, but I highly doubt it applies to the 1st Maori Contingent.
Possibly this may have been the case of the 2nd Maori Contingent (1st Maori Reinforcements)?


[QUOTE] # The photos of the Contingent in Auckland Feb 1915 show they are wearing badges but nearly all photos in Wellington with the boats show no badges.

If the 1st Maori Contingent had the badges in Auckland, it is pretty obvious they would have worn them during their “Parade” through Wellington on the 13th February 1915.
A description dated 16th February 1915, - “A special badge for the occasion, which has been, cast in bronze, and is now being worn by members of the Maori Contingent on the front of their helmets. The side badges of red and black cloth worn by the Maori soldiers on their helmets are the Maori colours.”


[QUOTE] # WATTS of Auckland badges are the rarest and are most likely to have been supplied the battalion for the Queen St parade early February 1915 (including round collars).

The 2nd Maori Contingent (1st Maori Reinforcements, approx 340 men) was a much smaller group compared to the 1st Contingent.
I wonder, could this be where the Watts badges fit in?

# From what I have seen the original officers wore a variety of badges - Buck wore a Medical Badge and Pakeha wore their corps badge.

Captain Peter Buck was in fact the 1st Maori Contingent’s appointed Medical officer.
Buck and Reverend Wainohu Wopiha (The contingents appointed Chaplain) were not part of the Contingents HQ Staff and A & B Companies.
The 2nd Lieutenants were all Maoris as per Government decision.

[Kiwisapper]

The NZNC is one of the last badges I need to complete my collection of WWI 1st NZEF badges. I don't suppose any of you would like to part with one of your spares?

I have only seen one or 2 of them for sale in New Zealand over the past couple of years, but have indeed seen many on Ebay....funny that, so I'd have to agree that they are being widely faked. I have bought 3 or 4 Maori Pioneer badges so far, and they have all been fakes to date, although my cast brass one may be period so a space filler it will remain.

Brent, with regards to the gilt wash , I have brand new NZMGC, 12th Otago Mounted Rifles and a NZVC badge all in near mint condition. I originally thought that they may have been faked but now see that they must be from the stock sold in the 70's.

Check out the collection in my Album. I will have it professionally mounted when it is finally complete.

Cheers

Rob

[saumua]

Mate......

you missed out on two recently.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/List...x?id=245562673

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/List...x?id=244531043

[Kiwisapper]

I saw the one you were bidding on. Didn't want to bid against you on that one, and I didn't have the cash for it at the time anyway.

The other one I must have just missed out on somehow.

[atillathenunns]

[QUOTE] “The NZNC is one of the last badges I need to complete my collection of WWI 1st NZEF badges. I don't suppose any of you would like to part with one of your spares?”

I have seen a number of NZNC badges for sale, but like you Rob, I have only seen two or three (bronze die stamped) that I would be comfortable to have in my collection. Unfortunately all have sold at prices above my limit.
I don’t actually have any NZNC badges yet, the picture of the bronze one I have posted belongs to a friend of mine.
I have as yet not seen any “Watt” made NZNC hat badges turn up sale, but have seen two collar badges.

With regards to the gilt badges, I have heard a number of different stories.
Obviously most speculate unissued.
However some reputable people I have spoken to, say the Defence department sent large numbers of assorted badges for gilting in the 1950s. (Not for the Coronation, but rather for the Queens opening of Parliament)

I have included a photo of a Watt made hat badge to help collectors know what to look for, these and especially the collars have been faked, from what I have seen, all the fakes have no manufacturers stamping’s to the reverse.

Just out of interest, the first NZ badge to be faked (Possibly the first faked badge in the world) was a Maori badge, these were interestingly made by the Maoris themselves.




Brent

[saumua]

Is this the spare I just sold to Wayne in Wellington?

[QUOTE=atillathenunns;49461]

“The NZNC is one of the last badges I need to complete my collection of WWI 1st NZEF badges. I don't suppose any of you would like to part with one of your spares?”

I have seen a number of NZNC badges for sale, but like you Rob, I have only seen two or three (bronze die stamped) that I would be comfortable to have in my collection. Unfortunately all have sold at prices above my limit.
I don’t actually have any NZNC badges yet, the picture of the bronze one I have posted belongs to a friend of mine.
I have as yet not seen any “Watt” made NZNC hat badges turn up sale, but have seen two collar badges.

With regards to the gilt badges, I have heard a number of different stories.
Obviously most speculate unissued.
However some reputable people I have spoken to, say the Defence department sent large numbers of assorted badges for gilting in the 1950s. (Not for the Coronation, but rather for the Queens opening of Parliament)

I have included a photo of a Watt made hat badge to help collectors know what to look for, these and especially the collars have been faked, from what I have seen, all the fakes have no manufacturers stamping’s to the reverse.

Just out of interest, the first NZ badge to be faked (Possibly the first faked badge in the world) was a Maori badge, these were interestingly made by the Maoris themselves.




Brent