Monmouthshire Regiment?

[JerryBB]

I bought this, the seller had it as Welsh and I think it is Mons, what do you think. The angle of the dragons foreleg is wrong for Welsh but correct for Mons IMO and the cap badge looks to be a Dragon which is also correct for Mons.

Any ideas on date, pre WWI I think but when, pre introduction of Brodrick cap C 1902 and post introduction of FS cap C 1886, so sometime between 1886 ish and 1902 ish?

[Graham Stewart]

Not an easy one to date, but the outstanding feature is the lanyards worn around the neck and the unusual pattern of SD uniform, which is minus breast pockets - which in my honest opinion, could possibly indicate 'Mounted Infantry'. If that is the case then probably Welsh Regt rather than the Monmouths, as the Volunteer's never had M.I..

On top of which campaign SD was, as far as I'm aware, never worn by Volunteers at Home until long after the South African War, when Home Pattern SD was introduced. The exception would of course be members of a Volunteer Cyclist Company

Check the shoulder straps to see what they're wearing, as I think I can make something out.

[JerryBB]

The best I can do with the titles Graham. They appear to be curved and with something above them.

Thanks for chiming in on this.

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by JBBOND

The best I can do with the titles Graham. They appear to be curved and with something above them.

Thanks for chiming in on this.

It does actually look like a 'V' above a title, which could possibly be 'Monmouth' and woven into the strap - did the Monmouths have a Cylist Company? There was no standard pattern of uniform for Volunteer Cyclist Companies, most being formed around 1900, but their uniforms are a minefield.

[JerryBB]

Hi Graham,

I have been looking at all the books I have to hand and cannot find any images that match the uniforms of these 3.

The dragon in the cap made me think Mons, but the welsh also wore this form of dragon collar but the Welsh MI appear to have a different tunic to these, and the Glamorgans I think also wore this collar, but I can't find any images of their uniforms.

Thanks again for taking the time to post your thoughts on this, much appreciated.

[Graham Stewart]

Artillery_Volunteer_Signaler_Cyclist.jpgCheshireRegimentVolunteerCyclist-800x1170.jpgRifle_Battalion_Cyclist.jpg
I've borrowed these three beautiful images from 'Soldiers of the Queen', to show you the variety of uniforms being worn by cyclst companies at the time. There is no pattern to them at all and it would appear that V.B. H.Q., had a 'blank cheque' when it came to deciding what their cyclists should wear.

[JerryBB]

Hi Graham,

the cyclists do seem to wear pretty much what they want!

The Welsh cyclist battalion wore rifle green tunics with red collars and blackened collar badges and buttons and also blackened equipment.

[eddie]

Hi Jerry
Photo in Bryn Owen's book Welsh Militia and Volunteer Corps 1757-1908 p97 Montgomeryshire Yeomanry Cavalry c1905 wearing white metal cap and collars badges of identical size in the forage cap.
Eddie

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by eddie

Hi Jerry
Photo in Bryn Owen's book Welsh Militia and Volunteer Corps 1757-1908 p97 Montgomeryshire Yeomanry Cavalry c1905 wearing white metal cap and collars badges of identical size in the forage cap.
Eddie

Thanks Eddie,

I don't have the book and will have to try and track down a copy. Thanks for the heads up on it.

[BROOKIES]

C'mon Dave stick to your Mons, cavalry wearing trousers and putties !!!.

Tail out on the dragon is more Mons than MYC (curly tail on there collars and MYC under the dragon especially Boer War period).

Again due to infantry uniform not likely to be MI also the Mons did send companies out to S.A with the SWB.

Is there a studio name on the photo as may help

[BROOKIES]

Also MYC collars (both versions) are a dragon standing on all four legs (if you can call them that) and doesn't have a raised leg like the Mons/Welsh.

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by BROOKIES

C'mon Dave stick to your Mons, cavalry wearing trousers and putties !!!.

Tail out on the dragon is more Mons than MYC (curly tail on there collars and MYC under the dragon especially Boer War period).

Again due to infantry uniform not likely to be MI also the Mons did send companies out to S.A with the SWB.

Is there a studio name on the photo as may help

Hi Brookies,

no name on it as the picture is glued to the backing card.

Thanks for posting.

Adding the full picture without the backing. The tail of the dragons points up whilst those for the Welsh tend to be more level with a downward end and those for the Glamorgan Yeomanry point up according to Churchill & Westlake, but the uniforms are not correct for Yeomanry? I don't have Churchill's history of the Collar badge which I assume is more detailed and any formation I have for the Mons are only taken from those I have seen being sold as Mons, so I don't know the details with any certainty.

[Graham Stewart]

[QUOTE=BROOKIES;234647]C'mon Dave stick to your Mons, cavalry wearing trousers and putties !!!.

Again due to infantry uniform not likely to be MI also the Mons did send companies out to S.A with the SWB.

Obviously you're not familiar with dress of the "Mounted Infantry", who actually wore infantry uniforms, when serving on campaign - as shown. It includes members of the Welsh Regt. All Infantry Regiments of the British Army had within their Battalions men who had passed the M.I. Course and who later served within M.I. Companies - which in turn were attached to M.I. Battalions.

[ATTACH]93093[/ATTACH[ATTACH]93094[/ATTACH
M.I..jpgScots M.I..jpg

The 'Volunteer Service Companies' to which you also possibly refer served within the elements of their Regular Battalions in South Africa, but under certain conditions - one of which they were 'Discharged' from their Volunteer Battalion and re-enlisted into a V.S.C. under a 'one year' term of enlistment. On completion of that year, they were again Discharged and returned to their V.B. for re-enlistment.

[grumpy]

Graham why do you say "and the unusual pattern of SD uniform", I think this is not SD post 1902 surely?

Regarding cyclists, a little-known order around 1900 allowed soldiers a Cycling uniform, usually blue - patrol style frock and blue pantaloons with puttees. This morphed, I believe, into the private-purchase [and sometimes unit-purchase] blue patrols, with distinctive high collar, collar badges, and shaped breast pockets. See more, from my notes:

Blue Patrols.

These were not an item issued to Line Infantry soldiers in or before 1914, so are not described in regulations except that a suit [ie included trousers or knickerbockers] was allowed to be privately purchased to an approved pattern “for cycling recreational purposes]. These permissive paragraphs are in Clothing Regs, Indian Clothing Regs and KR 1914. No drawing or pattern is in the public domain.
The Blue patrols name was not official. A handsome garment, it had a stand-up collar, large enough for a collar badge if worn, shoulder straps with titles if worn, secured by a button, pleated breast pockets with buttoned flaps, and occasionally skirt pockets ditto.
The top quality rank and appointment badges were worn, and the garment appears in many period photographs, at Home and in India.

[41st]

1st Welsh are recorded as wearing the dragon collar badge in their field service caps prior to introduction of the sealed pattern cap badge.

The volunteer battalions of the Welsh also wore dragon collar badges of the same pattern as shown in the photo, refer to Churchill for the various finishes.

Hwyl,
Kevin