11th Battn Welch Regiment (Cardiff Pals)

[Neil Pearce]

I thought this may be of interest to some forum members, and also one potentially for the albums page. I'll get around to doing my bit sooner or later!

Regarding the Cardiff Pals, somebody has kindly sent me relevant pages from the "Pals Day Special Souvenir Programme" dated July 12th 1916. The front page is attached together with a scan of page 126 (some programme!) which advertises the special Pals badge "Gift Scheme", which has been referred to previously on the forum.

The jeweller who made the badges was Mr Sol Phillips of 41 St Mary Street, Cardiff. Were these badges were available prior to this date? Does anyone have info on this? I wonder if the jewellers still exist?

I've attached copies of the badge in question, together with another example of the "cardboard" version, which I believe to be leather. I believe both to be genuine, but welcome comments, good, bad or indifferent, as always!

Cheers, Neil

[cymro]

Hi Neil,

Great post. I'd say both are spot on, although the picture of the back of the fund raising badge is a bit blurred. I've 3 examples of the cardboard badge - one of them has the hole in the top like yours, another has a pin through some cloth backing at the rear and the third is seemingly as issued.

The fund raising badge, is, in my 30 year experience of collecting welsh ww1 badges and militaria, even rarer than the cardboard badge. I've only ever seen three examples I think. I'll post pictures of mine when I get at them at home.

I've not done much research on the jeweller and/or number issued. It would be fascinating to find out however. Same goes for some of the tribute medals that we issued by jewellers around Wales during the Great War.

Best

Jon

[Neil Pearce]

Hi Jon

That's reassuring to know, thanks. Do you have any thoughts as to whether the "cardboard" one is leather? It's difficult for me to tell if it's some synthetic material (did they have synthetic then?). Mine smells like leather...

I'll try and look up the jeweller later on google, or at least the address. You never know, he might still be around. Given what you say about rarity, it'd be interesting to know how many they sold. Quite a bit of money to part with in those days!

I'll try and post better images later. The back is just flat, so it didn't really work on the scanner. In the meantime, look forward to your photos for comparison.

Would you happen to have a complete copy of the souvenir programme? I'd love to somehow get copies of that!
Cheers, Neil

[41st]

Neil,
I can assure you that the jewler concerned is no longer there.
My cardboard version has a backing as referred to by Jon in that it had a cross pin or something through cloth to the rear. I have never seen a leather example.
I have seen other examples with the hole in the top but have yet to come to a difinitive answer as to why some badges seem to lack any evidence of a fitting to the rear.
I have seen more than one example, mine included, where the old pin fitting has torn out and the badge then seems to have been worn by simply sticking an old fashioned (not at the time) paper clip of the split pin variety through it.
The fund raising badge looks fine.
Let me know what you want copied from the pals magazine and will see if I can oblige. I have issues 1 through 17 bound in one volume (a scarce official bind) and 19 and 21 loose. I think 21 was the last one issued. I think Jon knows where these came from.
Cofion gorau
Kevin

[Neil Pearce]

Kevin

Have had another good look at mine, and there is certainly no evidence of anything to the rear. There are two diagonal small marks, but can't see this being a pin. I am sure mine is leather. As I said before, It also smells of leather Also, it's very smooth around the endes and has less of the "frayed" look of yours. It's slightly convex as well - probably just aged.

Glad you approve of the Fund Raising badge, that's a relief. Would you happen to know if the centre is silver? It was quite a bit of money in those days - bet they didn't sell many...

I have a copy of the advert in the Pals magazine, but had no idea there were so many. It'd be interesting to know when they started selling the fund raiser, and for how long. I'll keep my eyes open for copies!
Cofion cynnes, Neil

[41st]

Just a couple of photos and p'cs showing the subject badge being worn, both as originally intended for wear on the lapel and in use on the cap.

[41st]

Originally Posted by 41st

Neil,
I can assure you that the jewler concerned is no longer there.
My cardboard version has a backing as referred to by Jon in that it had a cross pin or something through cloth to the rear. I have never seen a leather example.
I have seen other examples with the hole in the top but have yet to come to a difinitive answer as to why some badges seem to lack any evidence of a fitting to the rear.
I have seen more than one example, mine included, where the old pin fitting has torn out and the badge then seems to have been worn by simply sticking an old fashioned (not at the time) paper clip of the split pin variety through it.
The fund raising badge looks fine.
Let me know what you want copied from the pals magazine and will see if I can oblige. I have issues 1 through 17 bound in one volume (a scarce official bind) and 19 and 21 loose. I think 21 was the last one issued. I think Jon knows where these came from.
Cofion gorau
Kevin

Found what I have been looking for. Where I have referred to the old fashioned paper clip above here is a photo of it in use.
This is a photo from the Cardiff Pals magazine sadly announcing Pte. Bibbings death.

[41st]

Finally managed to get my hands on one of the Cardiff Pals fundraising badges. I’ve been through all my Pals Magazines and note that they are not advertised prior to issue No. 8 dated July 12th, 1916 on the back page as shown in photo 3 below.
I have also shown a Victory medal to 2nd Lieut J V Thomas who just happens to be the first man to enlist in the 11th and who was from Cardiff.
His signature is sixth from top left on the small pamphlet prepared by H M T Megantic which is the ship that transported the 11th from Marseille to Salonica. There is a full list of regimental officers and attached details inside the pamphlet.

[41st]

Signatures of Officers on the back of the Megantic pamphlet.

[41st]

I've managed to pick up another example of the cardboard badge which came with a complete set of medals, SWB & 4 overseas chevrons to a man from the 11th. Now that I'm able to compare the latest addition with my original example I can see why Neil had the impression that it was leather. I'm fairly certain that it's not, however it does have the surface similarities of a leather badge. Possibly some form of leatherette finish on a rigid cardboard?
My original badge as shown in the first two photos is the one that had the pin fixing to the rear and I have seen others of this brighter red colour with evidence of pin fixings originally provided at the back.
The new addition is shown in the second two photos and is much darker. There is no evidence of any fitting at the back, but the holes that have been punched at top and bottom look to have been done with a machine and are so positioned as to enable easy sewing onto the cap.

[Luke H]

Fantastic. Thanks for showing.

[Mike B]

Some lovely items on display - I have a weakness for Kitchener's Army insignia - lovely to see
Mike

[High Wood]

Originally Posted by 41st

Just a couple of photos and p'cs showing the subject badge being worn, both as originally intended for wear on the lapel and in use on the cap.

The original of the middle photograph of the three in this post has been in my collection for many years and I can give some more detail.

It was sent to Miss Lorna Whitaker lewis, Sunnyside, The Crescent, Pontypridd, Glamorganshire, from Hastings on the 23rd February 1915, by her elder brother Kingsley Wassell Lewis.

Kingsley did not serve with the 11th Battalion, Welsh Regiment, but was attached to them as an officer of the R.A.M.C. His 1911 Census entry shows him as a medical student.

Unfortunately, my current digital camera is not as good as my previous one and I cannot get a decent close up of the badges being worn. I will try again when the clouds have cleared.

[41st]

One to dad.

[High Wood]

Originally Posted by 41st

One to dad.

Amazing, it must have come from the same family album. So many albums have been broken up over the years by post card dealers and their contents cast to the four winds. Good to see that some of the contents are now in the hands of those who appreciate them.

I bought this photograph about the same time many years ago. Retter seems to be a Devonshire name but one branch of the family seems to have settled in Cardiff during the 1880s. I have not managed to trace Jack R, but Miss L Retter appears to be Anna Louisa Retter, born Cardiff, 1899. Her father, George Retter came from Rochbeare, Devon and he mother, Martha Jane, was Cardiff born. It seems that George Retter worked for the Great Western Railway, which would account for his move to Cardiff.