17/21st collars, silver plate or silver?

[mac mcconnell]

Well that's another interesting little challenge almost done good old dress regs, side hats my newest addition rather smart.

[GriffMJ]

Mac

Look at the Polo Helmet Pagri colour for the 17th/21st in the 1930s

[Dave Alexander]

Been gone a while and just catching up with the latest discussions. It looks as though at amalgamation of 17L and 21L in 1922 they tried to adopt something from each Reg't just as they tried with the last amalgamation. It was slightly embarrassing when I saw the red top on the QRL hats. Whenever we encountered MPs, known as Redcaps, we'd shout the old insult "Red hat, no drawers". This cry originated, I believe, with Piccadilly street walkers who wore that particular colour hat so as to be recognized, as soliciting for prostitution was illegal. The second part of the cry was because they offered stand-up sex in the nearest convenient alley. This is all second-hand information, of course.

[GriffMJ]

Here is another Mess kit sold in an auction house in 2012..... along with a 21st Lancer patrol jacket. This mess kit had its overalls with it...... missing a few buttons and rank. I cant see any sign of collar badges having been on it...... but its a poor quality photo. I think the really old kit is a 17th Light Dragoon tunic?

[Robthereiver]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Here is another Mess kit sold in an auction house in 2012..... along with a 21st Lancer patrol jacket. This mess kit had its overalls with it...... missing a few buttons and rank. I cant see any sign of collar badges having been on it...... but its a poor quality photo. I think the really old kit is a 17th Light Dragoon tunic?

Hello Griff

Just read through this thread again, and I have to admit you are winning the debate on your Mess kit being 17/21L, my guess c1930, though I have to say I would like to see an image of one in wear, which shouldn't be impossible to find in regimental archives somewhere

Its clearly a pattern that's been forgotten or overlooked, also wear might have been short lived? who knows?

However, the flat pattern gm. collars remain IMO spurious, and are not contemporary to your kit and I if collars were worn I would suggest they would have been silver Mottoes.

Thanks for all you efforts with this thread to date, graphics etc. its been interesting.

Rob

[colin 17]

Even though I find it hard to believe that the 17th ever had anything other than white facings, it is definitely proved in the dress regs.
Now I would say that the jacket is quite possibly 17/21st mess dress, if not definitely depending on the colour of blue on the facings.
I agree with Rob on his other points.

Colin

[GriffMJ]

Colin

Yes.... 17th/21st Lancers and probably post 1928 (earliest)? .....as the old kits would have still been in use and blues probably worn by the new Officers until an official mess kit was rubber stamped?

I am still waiting on Naval & Military Press to send out the 1934 dress regs that I ordered two weeks ago now

Rob

Thanks.... they were in India through the 1930s .... out of sight is out of mind I suppose. The flat collars go with the flat Motto for the headdress..... I have still yet to see any photo evidence for those.... but they exist.

[Robthereiver]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

The flat collars go with the flat Motto for the headdress..... I have still yet to see any photo evidence for those.... but they exist.

Griff

I admire your optimism, they come in sets?

There are dozens of manufacturers variants of the Cap Motto as you well know, but there ain't dozens of matching collars to go with them.

Early days the 17/21L wore effectively the last pattern collars of the 17L after that the regiment had to my knowledge, only one slightly smaller pattern of a modified design, first worn in India I believe, and there is I understand an image of them being worn in a Regimental Journal of 1937, later converted to a single post fixing in 1951 and eventually anodised late 1960's.

I would add that Officers apparently wore gilt collars on SD and Silver on No.1 dress, not sure about other forms of dress.

I rest my case, delighted to be proved wrong though

Rob

[GriffMJ]

Time will tell Rob..... new "old" things turn up every day

BTW I didn't mean that the flat collars were worn "with" the flat cap motto......

[GriffMJ]

Rob

At last the 1934 dress regs turned up.

17th/21st Lancers:-

Jacket = Blue; Collar = Blue; Shoulder straps = Blue; Cuffs = Blue; Vest = White

On Collar of Tunic & mess Jacket :- In silver, the deaths head and scroll, inscribed "Or Glory".

So....... it appears the 17th/21st ignored the blue shoulder straps and elected to have the gold chain gimp chain on the shoulder (as on their pre 1902 kit). There is no amendment in the regs for 1938 regarding this.....

According to the regs the collar badges on the kit should be silver (at the very least white metal) on the collars.

[Robthereiver]

Griff

Well done! bottomed this question out nicely. We are all the wiser.

I think we should all remember that people are prone to putting inappropriate insignia on items of uniform to embellish them, and the seller may not be responsible for these transgressions. So buyers beware.

Cheers
Rob

[mac mcconnell]

Hi Griff
Like many others I to doubted the blue front ,but your persistence has paid off so well done indeed.
.


Good drills

Mac

[mac mcconnell]

I was at the Museum last week and someone brought some of the flat collars in. The Curator did not like them and has no record of them any where. In his view a made up item.

Mac

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by mac mcconnell

I was at the Museum last week and someone brought some of the flat collars in. The Curator did not like them and has no record of them any where. In his view a made up item.

Mac

...1964, flat collars.

[mac mcconnell]

If I learnt anything in the last 7 years of colleting never say never rather like my PRI motto that I had for 21 odd years these may well be a private purchase