Looking for opinions on Seaforth badge on Hate Belt - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

backdraft · #1 01-01-12, 07:09 PM

Hi All

This is a hate belt that I have that is primarily made up of WW1 Canadian and Briitish badges with a few odds and ends mixed in. They are mounted on a 1915 dated web belt. There is 1 RCAF badge that may be a later addition. My question is about the Seaforth Highlander badge shown in the first photo. Is there any way to tell if it is Canadian (Babin E-231) or the British Seaforth Highlander badge? It has 3 lugs on the back. I have been able to move it enough to see 90% of the back and there is no maker mark. I welcome any thoughts and opinions.

I got this belt at a general antique auction in the Niagara region of Ontario last spring. It was advertised simply as a "miilitary badge collection" with no photos of the belt. I fell in love with this as soon as I saw it. I ended up paying quite abit for this piece, but I got to bring it home. Most of the badges are attached with shoe lace through the lugs. This is the only hate belt I have. I am looking for a web belt in poor condition to get leather straps with the buckles. I would sew them on and then frame this belt for display. To me the WW2 RCAF badge sticks out. I am debating removing it and adding a CEF collar from the 46th battalion that I have. It would fit the space. What would you do?

Thanks
Bob

edstorey · #2 01-01-12, 07:31 PM

Personally, I would not do anything to it as it is a collection in its own right and meddling with it does not help in preserving history.

Yes, it is mounted on a web belt, but it is a piece of a 1908 Pattern Waistbelt with the lether tabs and buckles sewn onto it. The belt was probably made when the whole collection was put together. Just so you know, 1908 Pattern Waistbelts do not come with leather tabs and buckles, so you will not be able to repair it by finding another.

My take on this is that this belt was made up sometime after WWII and perhaps even as late as WWII. A nice piece and something that I would not 'fix' or alter.

I have attached an image of a 1908 Pattern Waistbelt.

backdraft · #3 01-01-12, 07:43 PM

Thanks for the info. The ends of the webbing on the belt do not have any of the brass yours shows. So this could be simply a length of webbing with the leather straps and buckles added later.

Bob

Bill A · #4 01-01-12, 07:50 PM

I agree with Ed. Leave the belt as is. Figure out some way of mounting / displaying the belt without having to put holes in it.
As far as the Seaforth / Pictou badge goes, I don't think it makes much difference in the context of the badges on the belt. Some are Nova Scotia area, so it could be Pictou, but there are also some Brit badges so it could be imperial Seaforth's.

backdraft · #5 01-01-12, 08:21 PM

Thanks for your thoughts Bill. When I do mount this I plan to build a custom frame and attach it with a series of picture framing hooks top and bottom. They can hold it in place without putting any holes in the belt. I have included a photo of an armband that I have displayed this way.

Thanks
Bob

Bill A · #6 01-01-12, 08:59 PM

Nice way of mounting the armbands Bob. Something like that would be a great mounting for the belt. If the clips are brass, make sure there is a coating on the brass, or it may develop verdigris over time.

edstorey · #7 01-01-12, 09:04 PM

As I said in my answer, your belt is made from a piece or section of a 1908 Pattern Waistbelt. It may have been made up from a belt that was damaged or perhaps the person who made up the belt liked the idea of the leather tabs. Whatever the case, as you have noted, yours does not have any of the brass fittings.

backdraft · #8 02-01-12, 03:21 PM

Thanks for the comments guys. The reason for my question about the badge in the first photo is in the context of my CEF collection. I want to check Babin E-231 off my list and would like to do it with this badge. I think being on the belt ties this badge to the WW1 time period and if nothing sticks out to make this British I will consider another spot in the collection filled. As for removing the RCAF badge, thank you again for your comments. The way I plan to mount it allows the badge to remain, even though it hangs below the edge of the belt. It will probably stay right where it is.

Thanks
Bob

edstorey · #9 02-01-12, 04:15 PM

I think that your theory that the badge which matches E-231 is linked to the Great War just because it is on the 1915 dated piece of webbing is slightly flawed. 1908 Pattern Waistbelts were still in use by the Canadian Army as late as 1940 so there is every possibility that the whole collection could have been constucted any time after 1918.

Look at it this way, what if you had one of these Great War dated belts with a collection of Second war badges on it, would that mean that the badges must from from the Great War simply because the belt is dated from that period?

You have a nice collection of metal insignia on a nice old piece of webbing, do not go reading too much into this artefact based on your desire to fill holes in your badge collection and the lucky circumstance that the fabric is dated.

backdraft · #10 02-01-12, 05:20 PM

Wow! I guess if I post on this forum again I will be much more selective on my wording. When I wrote "I think the badge being on the belt ties it to the WW1 time period" I wasn't so much saying this directly because of the date on the piece of webbing. I was thinking more of the whole collection of badges which has numerous CEF badges. Bill answered my original question about the badge and that it could be Canadian or Imperial. Yes, I am very happy with this hate belt regardless of the origins or age of this one badge which matches E-231 or the exact date that they were mounted on the piece of webbing.

Thanks
Bob

Phillip Herring · #11 02-01-12, 07:31 PM

Check the Seaforth badge. See how many lugs there are, how they are configured, and if they are stamped metal or wire loops.
The only badge that I have accepted as a 231st CEF cap badge (in my own collection) has four stamped metal lugs. Others may differ with me on that point.

Phil

Bill A · #12 02-01-12, 08:10 PM

No one has mentioned that beautiful 11 CRT badge. Nice example, and not often seen. And the 25 Bn bi-metal badge is a nice example.
In the Brit stuff, I think that 7 Bn PWO West Yorkshire Regt is a scarce badge.

Phillip Herring · #13 02-01-12, 08:17 PM

The 4th Field Ambulance badge is also scarce.
I cannot tell if it is a cap or a collar - I'm leaning towards collar.
I just checked my Charlton book - it is a collar, albeit a scarce collar. This is why I tell people to buy the reference material.
Oops, I am now reinforcing the prevailing attitude that I am arrogant and rude.

Phil

edstorey · #14 02-01-12, 08:57 PM

References! Please stop referring to them....hehehehe

Phillip Herring · #15 02-01-12, 09:26 PM

Happy New Year Ed!

Phil