Chaudiere tunic...???

[Bill A]

An offering on ebay of a Régiment de la Chaudiere tunic. But some problems with this one. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tchlink:top:en
First, tunics that come on the market today are "coming home tunics" not D-Day. The patches are melton, and the shoulder should be canvas by that time. But more problematic is that the titles are post war.
Other observations?

[Phillip Herring]

The "3rd Div" patches look like felt from the photos. And they look more blue (2nd Div) than the French Grey for 3rd Div.

Phil

[chaudiere1944]

Hi Bill/Phil,

I agree the shoulder titles are post war.

The 3rd Division titles appear french/grey on my screen but coupled with the post war shoulder title I am skeptical as to the time it was applied to the BD.

Two additonal observations are:

1) the BD is missing the Canada title

2) if this was a D-Day BD it has too many red service chevrons on it. A white chevron would be awarded to those who served in the first year of the war Sept 1, 1939- Aug 31, 1940. Even if the soldier who this BD belonged to enlisted on Sept 1, 1940 he would only have 3 red chevrons by the time June 6, 1944 occured. Of course it could have been applied later in the war when he would have been entitled to it, but it is advertised as a D-Day tunic so it is more likely added at the same time the Shoulder Titles were.

Best
Mike

[chaudiere1944]

After looking at it again I picked up a few other things:

1) There should be a Canadian Volunteer Service Ribbon with Silver Maple over the left chest

2) The Shoulder straps look like a completely different shade of green

3) The included picture does not have any of the soldiers wearing a Reg't de la Chaudiere cap badge...one looks like a RCA badge but I cannot identify the others.

4) The shoulder title is not stitched right at the seam.

5) The Shoulder title and 3rd div title are not in alignment

Mike

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by Bill A

An offering on ebay of a Régiment de la Chaudiere tunic. But some problems with this one. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tchlink:top:en
First, tunics that come on the market today are "coming home tunics" not D-Day. The patches are melton, and the shoulder should be canvas by that time. But more problematic is that the titles are post war.
Other observations?

This is a very valuable analysis. Reference "canvas shoulder titles" - in 1945 would UK-made embroidered titles not have been readily available for private purchase. Or were dress regulations in the Canadian Army rigidly adhered to by soldiers going home on demobilisation?

[Bill A]

Hi Mike, The ONLY AUTHORIZED shoulder titles from 1943 until 1945 for the Canadian Army overseas were the printed pattern. Having stated the rule, there are all the exceptions. Several units had great difficulty obtaining printed titles and were kitted (some with approval, but most unofficially) with embroidered titles.
Next, and this should become a mantra, 99.9% of the tunics that come on the market today are the "coming home" tunic. For the Canadian collector this means that the uniforms, whatever the date on the makers mark, is the tunic was worn home at the end of hostilities and patched accordingly. In other words, a tunic worn on D-Day would not likely exist.
An understanding of the process of repatriation and demobilization explains the patching. At the end of the war the front line uniforms were mostly unfit for further service. Most "front line" service tunics were turned in to stores and destroyed or "salvaged". (Salvage, if I understand the process was basically for use as rags. There were some other salvage uses.) The soldier had that uniform replaced with a new issue battledress. (On the Canadian scale of issue, soldiers had two battledress and one greatcoat.) For most fellows, one bd was set aside to be worn as "best bd" and dressed up as best the soldier could manage. (Obviously a neat clean, tailored bd was a "chick magnet", and important when on leave, but also important for formal parades and ceremonies.) The other bd was worn as a workday tunic, for everyday training, parades etc.
Both tunics had to be patched, and the "free" issue of insignia was only the printed titles and patches. But, in the RO authorizing the printed pattern insignia in January 1943, it had allowed the continued wearing of embroidered until those embroidered titles were worn out. Many soldiers had a few pairs of the melton titles and patches, and set them aside in their personal kit. As the canvas came on issue, they obtained those titles and put them up. The canvas proved to be less durable and somewhat tatty after a bit of wear. The soldiers preferred the embroidered titles, and dressed up their best bd in the embroidered, if they had them. And this opened the door for private purchase of embroidered titles in the UK, as troops made their way back on repatriation / demobilization leave.
To summarize, in the process of returning to Canada, the soldier was issued new bd, and then was required to put up the appropriate insignia. Printed insignia was the only authorized pattern, and the pattern that was distributed from RCOC stores. Enforcement of dress regs at the end of hostilities was spotty, and depended upon who was enforcing the regs at a unit level or in the various drafts that proceeded to Canada. Many fellows broke out their best insignia to dress up their new bd, or bought felt or melton in the UK. Once returned to Canada there was virtually no meaningful enforcement; there the fellows were demobilzed as quickly as possible.

(Demobilization/repatriation of the Canadian army was a bit confusing. First, the fellows volunteering for the Canadian Army Pacific Force were top priority and they were repatriated, then demobilization was done on a point system (based mainly on time overseas, with some other factors included), then whole units were returned.)

To bring this back to the tunic in question, there are too many inconsistencies with dress practices and regulations for that tunic. It does not stand up to the smell test.

[Mike Jackson]

Many thanks. That is fascinating background. I believe there is scope for someone to carry out a similarly detailed analysis of British Army BD blouses. I have seen some "imaginatively" badged BD in collections - clearly embellished to attract attention on return to UK. The blouse badged to a Royal Scots Fusiliers 2Lt of 5 Inf Div with the ribbon of MC and Bar was particularly impressive (although the award of MC and Bar was not borne out by RSF history).

[edstorey]

What many people forget is that for the most part, on demobilization, the British soldier had to turn in most if not all of his kit. He was issued with a demobilization suit and sent home, so the the survivablity of fully badged British BD is far less than that of Canadian.