19th Hussars elephant

[Alan O]

I have no information on where W&W got their explanation for the rarity of the double scroll elephant from compared to the many badges of the single scroll versions (allegedly only worn 1898-02 which does not chime with the number in collections). It is however the most convincing explanation that i have heard. However how the dates match up with the change in regimental titles go I am not so sure they are right. The single scroll seems to have predated the double scroll ones judging by photos and hallmark dates. However it may have been that the circa 1903 double scroll badge was withdrawn and the old one continued in use.

[Luke H]

That Double scrolls are found with sliders the Wallis & Wallis explanation cannot be correct as it suggests 1898/99 introduction and immediate withdrawal of the pattern.

[Alan O]

I agree their dates are wrong (the officers hallmarked ones are post Boer War) but the 'wrong' elephant is an interesting theory and actually more plausible than most!

[GriffMJ]

... its says that the double scroll was issued to all ranks ...does it not? Withdrawn because the legs were too short (African). Hence the longer legged (Indian) single scroll. :-

At the introduction of the soldiers cap badge prior to the Boer War (in the form it is today) the 19th (Alexandra princess of Wales' Own) Hussars were issued with a double scroll elephant cap badge. The Regiment had been awarded the elephant for their distinguished conduct at the memorable Indian battle of Assaye (Sept 23, 1803). After the badge had been issued it was realised that an "African" elephant design had been used. Immediately ALL the badges were withdrawn, hence the rarity of the double scroll versions today. Because of the length of the Indian elephant's legs (making the badge large) only a single scroll for the title was used on the replacement badge.

Other Ranks double scroll are quite rare. The Officers pattern, in hallmarked silver, is extremely rare.
[Source:- Wallis & Wallis, 2011]

[Alan O]

It does say that Griff but it is wrong. The few ORs badges that exist are not datable: unlike the officers ones with hallmarks to years after the Boer War has ended. Als0 the regimental title on the double scroll badge cannot be 1898 as the regiment was not known by that title in 1898.

[mooke07]

Interesting article thanks Alan.

It was the ears that were incorrect on the double scroll Asian elephant as they are smaller than their African counter-parts. Asian elephants are only slightly smaller in height (measured at the shoulder on African elephants and at the arch of the back on Asian elephants) and so the explanation as to the length of the legs and the change therefore to the scroll to accommodate longer legs doesn't cut it for me sorry.

There are a number of other anatomical details that are incorrect on both badges shown and so I don't think that anything else than the ears stood out as to warranting a correction.

Cheers Dean

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by mooke07

Interesting article thanks Alan.

It was the ears that were incorrect on the double scroll Asian elephant as they are smaller than their African counter-parts. Asian elephants are only slightly smaller in height (measured at the shoulder on African elephants and at the arch of the back on Asian elephants) and so the explanation as to the length of the legs and the change therefore to the scroll to accommodate longer legs doesn't cut it for me sorry.

There are a number of other anatomical details that are incorrect on both badges shown and so I don't think that anything else than the ears stood out as to warranting a correction.

Cheers Dean

Leg length is new one on me as I always thought it was ear size that was the first thing to look for. It's another interesting theory but without a primary source to confirm facts we will never know why the badges were introduced and immediately dropped from use.

[GriffMJ]

...is it worth contacting W&W to find out their source?

[Alan O]

10 years on I don't think I will bother. It's a nice tale and may be based on some element of truth but as I said in post 1 the dates are wrong and don't match the regimental titles. In 1902, the regiment was re-titled the 19th (Alexandra, Princess of Wales's Own) Hussars. And, when Alexandra became Queen Consort in 1908, the name changed to the 19th (Queen Alexandra's Own Royal) Hussars. So the double scroll elephant can not be before 1902. I think it is this date that people have taken and assumed the single scroll elephant stopped being worn then.

[Luke H]

I see what you mean Alan. But, if it was the wrong elephant and the Regiment frowned upon it why do we have the sliver ones which date to the early 1902-3?

Surely new officers would be directed what to and not to buy.

I’m firmly in the bandsman badge camp with this one.

Alas I think the W&W ‘badge story’ is just that and a red herring.

[Alan O]

Luke

Ignore W&W dates as they are wrong. In 1902 the regimental title was changed and that is the title on the badges and the hallmarks match 1902-03. Now we all know that officers badges were bought so on a change of badge they officers were often wearing them before the Or's were as the ORs were to use up old stock. This happened with the RTC in 1923 and in 1953 with many regiments. Now if there were officers badges dated 1904 onwards then you would know it was not 1903 when the elephant was dropped. But there aren't so it suggests officers did not buy them after 1903 ish.

So the fact that the officers badges' hallmarks date to 1902-03 and this is the time that the regiment changed titles I think it is fair to say that this was when the design changed. For some reason ORs badge are equally scarce.

So:

1. They either continued to wear the single scroll beyond 1902 (which in light of the number of badges around is the case or someone made some very good restrikes from the original die so it's no longer possible to tell the difference)

2. Circa 1902-03 the regiment took a dislike to the double scroll badge and dropped it from wear. Either they returned to badgeless pill box (possible) or side caps with collars.

3. Or they went straight to the Danneborg collar which was formally sealed in 1910 but officers were certainly wearing (photos prove it) as early as 1908.

4. In 1908 the regimental title changes again so the Danneborg Cross is then the norm.

As to why they dropped the elephant in 1903 is open to supposition - W&W 'wrong elephant' claim or simply the CO decided he did not like it and they adopted their own badge. This sort of thing happened in several Cavalry regiments sucj as 14th Hussars or 1st Dragoons both circa 1900 and later.

[GriffMJ]

.... there is an overlooked Nelly ....with slider (or loops E/W) and no scroll..... shown with the NCO Arm Badge. I think this Nelly can be also found with sewing holes and no fixings?

[Alan O]

Totally different badge. It's the post war pagri worn 1920-22 and also back in Tidworth in UK on pith helmets just before amalgamation.

[Luke H]

From my correspondence with Peter Seaman some years ago he and Hugh King discussed the 19H Double Scroll and at that time only six examples were known to exist.

Whilst six is a somewhat arbitrary number I am in little doubt that the genuine examples can be counted on both hands.

The three genuine ones which have gone through Bosley’s in recent years were ex-Hugh King, ex-Peter Seaman and ex-David Wright collections.

These numbers seem just too small for anything issued to a whole regiment. Even a cavalry one, even if the C.O. disliked it, even if the strictest RSM collected them all in before issuing the next pattern.

I would love to find out what exactly SP 4659/???? and 4659a/1903 were as these hold the key being predecessor to the Dannebrog cross badge.

[Alan O]

Luke

In the same way the QO Buffs badges exist but were never worn as they were made but never issued, it's possible that the 6 known to exist are trial patterns submitted for approval but never worn. The fly in the ointment is having more than one hallmark date?

The 1903 badge most probably relates to the change in regimental title and this is only seen on the double scroll badge. Now clearly they never wore it in any numbers and it would be lovely to find a photo datable from 1903-08 showing the troopers wearing either the single scroll elephant or the collar badge.

Alan