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  #1  
Old 12-02-20, 12:21 PM
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Default Quarter Master Sergeant

Hi all,

Does anyone have any thoughts if the following chap is a QMS?

Thanks,

Stephen
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  #2  
Old 12-02-20, 12:23 PM
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I would say he has a Rifles pattern Colour badge over a single chevron on his right upper sleeve and is therefore a Colour Sergeant.

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  #3  
Old 12-02-20, 12:35 PM
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Thanks Simon, I wasn't sure about him. This is the full image. Does anyone in it stick out as the QMS to you?

Thanks,

Stephen
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  #4  
Old 12-02-20, 12:47 PM
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Seated far right. 4 chevrons and crown/star on upper sleeve.

possible.

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Last edited by manchesters; 12-02-20 at 01:20 PM.
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  #5  
Old 12-02-20, 12:51 PM
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Thanks Simon, was hoping he would have been one of that chaps with a single medal. Had he I would have been able to put a name to him. It is useful anyway and helps date the photo.

Thanks again,

Stephen
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  #6  
Old 12-02-20, 02:29 PM
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Lovely group, looks like battalion staff plus colour sergeants. The seating arrangement is a little unconventional: whereas the sergeant major is in his traditional place to officer's right, and with 4 chevrons point down, and crown, lower arm as 1869 regulations, the soldier tentatively identified as the QMS has been exiled to the flank. His badge appears to be 4 chevrons and crown upper arm. It can hardly be an eight point QMS star, not introduced until 1881. I do not know what his rank might be. Just possibly bugle major, 4 chevrons and bugle[s]. But then again in wrong position on arm.
A mystery perhaps.
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  #7  
Old 12-02-20, 04:38 PM
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They look like the Rifle Brigade to me, with sergeant major of battalion and QMS of battalion seated centrally, the former with pouch belt, the latter adjacent, both clutching their swords in left hand. I seem to recall that a musketry sergeant instructor wore 4-stripes on the upper arm at that time, so that would be the man far right behind the colour sergeant. This was a feature of all regiments of rifles heritage, both, regulars and volunteers. All the SNCOs dressed as ‘first class’ battalion staff are wearing frogged tunics, as per regulation. We can date the photo to between 1861 when the quilted shako worn was adopted, and 1871, when the sealskin busby replaced it.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 14-02-20 at 11:36 AM.
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  #8  
Old 12-02-20, 10:50 PM
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I had assumed the pouchbelt man was an officer, he might be the sergeant major but his cuff adornments might not be ranking.
The man next on his right has a badge above chevrons ...... as photo is clearly pre 1881 it is not the eight point star of a QMS. Might he be a sergeant major?

The man identified as musketry instructor appears not to have crossed muskets in addition to a single badge above 4 chevrons.

It is a pity that the photo lacks clarity.
All in all a strange group ...... a frogged member of the Bugles in the back row, and one from the Bugles seated without frogging.
Incidentally, Dawnay was a bit vague on Rifles badging in the period, rather wisely.
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  #9  
Old 12-02-20, 11:00 PM
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Thanks Grumpy and Toby, I appreciate your input on the photo. I was hoping a quartermaster I'm interested in would be in the photo. As his only medal was a MSM I was hoping he would have been one of the men with a single medal.

Stephen
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  #10  
Old 12-02-20, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
I had assumed the pouchbelt man was an officer, he might be the sergeant major but his cuff adornments might not be ranking.
The man next on his right has a badge above chevrons ...... as photo is clearly pre 1881 it is not the eight point star of a QMS. Might he be a sergeant major?

The man identified as musketry instructor appears not to have crossed muskets in addition to a single badge above 4 chevrons.

It is a pity that the photo lacks clarity.
All in all a strange group ...... a frogged member of the Bugles in the back row, and one from the Bugles seated without frogging.
Incidentally, Dawnay was a bit vague on Rifles badging in the period, rather wisely.
There are no officers in the photo. The SNCOs pouch belt is and always has been narrower than that of an officer, and with a slightly smaller, lesser quality badge on its front. The entire image comprises a sergeants’ mess with the SM and QMS presiding front and centre. The sergeant major’s boots and trousers are of poorer cut and shape than an officer’s.

Only the staff sergeants’ pattern sword had a leather scabbard as seen here, officers scabbards were metal, brass for field rank and white metal for company officers. In this particular photo all rank stripes are point down, but the SM’s and QMS’s are lower down the sleeve.

The rifle brigade pattern crossed rifles and crown badge was more subdued in that 1860s period with just the crown having a richer appearance. You can see something of this in the other photos that I posted showing sergeant instructors, albeit from later periods. On this rare occasion I am 100% positive regarding my earlier analysis.

The 4-stripes badge of appointment of the sergeant instructor has been discussed many times before. I can recall even an extract of RVC orders referring to it, posted here by Graham Stewart. It was unique to regiments of rifles heritage. I’d date the photo to the years just before 1869.

NB. The Rifle Brigade had not in that period yet adopted their later famous gold braid outlined rank stripes and instead had stripes formed from an Lincoln green worsted tape on a rifle green backing. That is what is seen in the photo. The bugle major has a frogged jacket because he is dressed as first class, but colour sergeants, sergeants or lance sergeants have plain tunics.
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Last edited by Toby Purcell; 19-02-20 at 10:14 AM.
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  #11  
Old 13-02-20, 11:22 PM
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I think this is too much of a digression for the OP. The photograph is fuzzy and lacks sufficient detail to merit further attempts at analysis.

Last edited by grumpy; 14-02-20 at 12:07 AM.
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  #12  
Old 14-02-20, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
I think this is too much of a digression for the OP. The photograph is fuzzy and lacks sufficient detail to merit further attempts at analysis.
Yes I agree itís fuzzy, but not that it contains insufficient detail. Iím hoping the OP will be able to reveal the location. Itís almost certainly the Rifle Brigade.
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  #13  
Old 14-02-20, 11:12 AM
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If the photo was taken in Ireland then it is the 2nd Battalion of the 60th Rifles, whose uniform was identical to the rifle brigade apart from the colour of their facings and their chevrons. In 1866 the 2/60th was based at the Curragh and in 1867 they were based in Cork.
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Last edited by Toby Purcell; 14-02-20 at 11:06 PM.
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  #14  
Old 14-02-20, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
Yes I agree itís fuzzy, but not that it contains insufficient detail. Iím hoping the OP will be able to reveal the location. Itís almost certainly the Rifle Brigade.
A frogged member of bugles relegated to the back would invite analysis if you can see it well enough surely?
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  #15  
Old 14-02-20, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
A frogged member of bugles relegated to the back would invite analysis if you can see it well enough surely?
He can be no other than the bugle major, as no other bugle appointment wore a first class tunic. The seating arrangement is not so rigid as to be set in concrete, especially in rifle regiments, who have always been less obsessed with protocol. Apart from the SM and QMS being invariably positioned centrally, thereís no laid down sequence of positioning for the other battalion staff. The musketry sergeant is sat to the right and man-spreading with his hands flamboyantly on his knees. Even outside of rifle regiments there is great variation in battalion groups in terms of the seating positions of staff inferior to the SM and QMS. There is no obligatory positioning.
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