1VB Leicesters

[Paul Spellman]

Originally Posted by Mike B

Probably available in places on the forum as you say Paul, but I thought usefully consolidated. I tend to concentrate on only a couple of areas of interest, but never cease to be amazed by the knowledge on here
Mike

Mike,
Do you think or are you convinced by others that the j/R Gaunt BHam plaques are genuine or indeed the stamped BHam or Birm variants for the periods they represent
Paul

[mike_vee]

Originally Posted by Neil s

can see description but no illustration

I am the same , no photos are showing in posts 51 & 52


.

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by Paul Spellman

Mike,
Do you think or are you convinced by others that the j/R Gaunt BHam plaques are genuine or indeed the stamped BHam or Birm variants for the periods they represent
Paul

Hello Paul
I am not expert enough to express an opinion on the plaques - I am learning from the conversation. I do think it useful to have the information from various threads collated though, as constructive discussion is enlightening. If the items were Commando related, you will appreciate I would be extremely comfortable to express an informed opinion - but my expertise is limited to that sphere. As with all decisions I like the mantra 'a person's opinion is as good as their information'. I am sure we all agree, it is good members share information. It is a shame some members are struggling to see the images.
Mike

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Volunteer Soldier

Luke, Ticker asked for a heads-up. I was trying to be helpful and in view of his numerous, recent posts I thought there would be a good chance he would continue to read the thread. You clearly think otherwise. If any member is in touch with Martin I think he would be interested to read recent posts.

If your intention was to help and aid discussion I accept this and thank you for the constructive contribution. Clearly I misconstrued ‘‘the silence is deafening now’’ comment, my mistake. I’ve had the pleasure of corresponding with Ticker previously on several occasions so took the liberty of dropping him an email. Hopefully if all is well and time permitting we may hear back in due course.

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Paul Spellman

Neil,
I’m not sure you have missed much, a lot of pictures posted by Luke which are available on the forum, detail gone over from previous posts but no substance and a bit of fence sitting
Paul

Wrong again Paul.

If you were able to read it properly you’ll see there’s no fence sitting on my part.

The structure is intended to be an objective as possible analysis presenting pros and cons to members so they can themselves consider the question of these 1st V.B.‘s.

But I can see that this is all lost on you.

[Volunteer Soldier]

Of course my aim was constructively to elicit views and comments; surely this is a primary aim of the Forum. Like so many issues arising from our fascinating hobby the end view, more often than not, culminates in personal opinion. In the process one appreciates the contribution offered by , for example, by AlanO who gave me much room for thought on VB's. When hard facts on the provenance of an item are simply not available to us then we must rely on opinion based on probability or even possibility. When I first raised the question of the 1VB Leicesters badges (wm, silver plated, OSD et al) I realised I might be more than a trifle optimistic in hoping that some collector might settle an issue. The issue being that in many years of collecting and discussion with some folks who have forgotten more than I will ever learn, I have never, but never, seen hide or hair of a VB badge with a Gaunt B'ham/Birm plaque/stamp. I appreciate Luke's dedication to establish, as far as extant knowledge will allow, a possible scenario. But the deafening silence of other collectors - a fully understandable silence and a comment made without even a tad of criticism - I am inevitably left with no option other than to rely on personal opinion. I have not been idle. I have trawled through catalogues; I have questioned a platoon's worth of fellow collectors and turned up nothing - other than personal opinion. My own view? I would not have any 1VB Leicesters badges in my collection. But what do I know about an event that may, or perhaps may not, have happened some 120 years or so ago?

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by Volunteer Soldier

Of course my aim was constructively to elicit views and comments; surely this is a primary aim of the Forum. Like so many issues arising from our fascinating hobby the end view, more often than not, culminates in personal opinion. In the process one appreciates the contribution offered by , for example, by AlanO who gave me much room for thought on VB's. When hard facts on the provenance of an item are simply not available to us then we must rely on opinion based on probability or even possibility. When I first raised the question of the 1VB Leicesters badges (wm, silver plated, OSD et al) I realised I might be more than a trifle optimistic in hoping that some collector might settle an issue. The issue being that in many years of collecting and discussion with some folks who have forgotten more than I will ever learn, I have never, but never, seen hide or hair of a VB badge with a Gaunt B'ham/Birm plaque/stamp. I appreciate Luke's dedication to establish, as far as extant knowledge will allow, a possible scenario. But the deafening silence of other collectors - a fully understandable silence and a comment made without even a tad of criticism - I am inevitably left with no option other than to rely on personal opinion. I have not been idle. I have trawled through catalogues; I have questioned a platoon's worth of fellow collectors and turned up nothing - other than personal opinion. My own view? I would not have any 1VB Leicesters badges in my collection. But what do I know about an event that may, or perhaps may not, have happened some 120 years or so ago?

If the aim is to have a Leicester VB then stick with the field service cap pattern with the three lions.

[Alan O]

I am afraid that due to the lack of any official list, VB dress regs or comprehensive study into what VB cap badges were worn then fakers and forgers have created pieces to meet demand.

The fact that VBs were autonomous means that they did not always follow the Regular battalions. For example fakers have made VB Dorsetshire badges using the Regular pattern badge but to my knowledge the VB did not wear such badges but had their own bespoke pattern until 1908. Likewise the 1 VB DCLI has been widely faked with both applied oval plaques and with tagged scrolls. (K&K show an oval plaque for 1 VB but no mention of 2 VB)

In addition whilst officers may have had bespoke VB badges this does not always seem to have applied to the Other Ranks.

Likewise when you get an all w/m badge without a unit designation is it a VB or possibly militia or TF walking out or all 3?

For example there exists a 1 VB Warwickshire cap badge but it has the Boer war battle honour so can ony date after 1905. What did they wear before hand? Collars on FSC, no badge or the plain w/m badge?

It is possible that a full sized tiger badge with a VB title was worn by 1 Leicestershire VB but without photographs or provenance then it may be that no such badge was ever made. If they wore badgeless slouch hats, FSC or wore a tiger badge without a unit title then we are all chasing a badge that did not exist.

Gaylor shows 24 VB badges but even some of them were only worn after 1905. K&K show a few more but it is telling that even K&K's coverage is inconclusive and vague. The fact that so many VBs identified as Rifle Volunteers further complicates things as their badges will not follow suit with the other VBs or Regular counterparts.

It would be interesting to try and match the list of VBs/VRCs to known VB badges and see where the gaps are.

[Volunteer Soldier]

Good morning Gentlemen, Thank you Keith - sound advice. Thank you Alan, excellent comment as usual. I am attempting to look into VB's as you suggest - but only the VB glengarries of English and Welsh regiments (no offence to the Scottish). In the absence of readily available documents I am trawling through auction catalogues, Forum posts etc. After an initial rush I am making rather , or very, slow, progress. But I can say that already there are some surprising anomalies. I thought perhaps I would attempt the same exercise with cap badges but for the reasons you cover in your post I think it would take two or three life-times with too many feathers being ruffled perhaps.

[Keith Blakeman]

http://mountsorrelarchive.org/wp-con...-1900-1908.pdf

A photo from 1906, hard to make out the badges unfortunately.

[Alan O]

Still useful as it shows the Khaki cap which would usually have a full sized cap badge.

[Keith Blakeman]

Warwickshire 1st VB in the Victorian period wore a Maltese Cross, whether for the fsc or not I don't know, it could easily be a small glengarry badge

[Alan O]

Keith

Indeed it might. There are also 2 other patterns of 1 VB full sized tiger badge in existence which may both be right or both be fakes! There is also the possibility that only officers wore one of the designs.

There is precedent for this happening in other VBs.

Alan

[Neil s]

I have found the second VB tiger from the original post it is not the same as the other that I commented on, but looks to be the same as a silver one that I have, however the detail seems to be poorer and the fault to the rear of the VB scroll makes it look as if it is cast.

[Volunteer Soldier]

To help and aid discussion I can now add that Bosley's auction included a 1VB Leicesters badge on 25 Feb 2004. The description was sparse and showed only a front of badge photo. The description read "Lot 132 1st (Leicester) VB Leicestershire Regiment cap badge. JR Gaunt London shaped plate to reverse. Old replacement loops. VGC." That makes Gaunt B'ham, Gaunt Birm and Gaunt London.