Essex Tank and new crop brass repros

[Bill A]

Hi Dave, The same thought occured to me. Not sure how to deal with it, a separate page? Or linked to the Badge registry?
There are some significant issues with a repro listing or page, and would have to be thought out carefully to avoid problems.

[LLWill]

Really good thread to read!
The image of the badge that I have posted in the Badge registry, is of the Hat badge worn by my cousin during the war. He gave it to me a number of years ago. So - it is a good chance that the badge is a good one!! On the back it has a "BIRKS" marking directly above the left lug.

Larry

[WJ Miller]

Larry, thanks for mentioning the "Birks" mark on your badge! I had a vague recollection of seeing "Birks" marked Essex Tank badges before, but could but find an example.
So,
"small rivets" = Birks,
"large rivets" = Scully,
"cast brass" = disappointment

[WJ Miller]

Bill,

What problems do you forsee with listing known or suspect reproductions? Is there an issue with libel/slander? Or just a concern over accuracy of information?

I think detailing (known)genuine and suspect badges with an in depth analysis of their construction, as David did here, and leaving it to collectors to decide solves both problems.

Speaking strictly of obvious repros... If a currently known counterfeiter (let's call it what it is), has a problem with the anaylsis, isn't the onus on them then to speak up and ask for a correction? (never going to happen) Perhaps I missing something here?

I can see a lot of badges maybe falling into a grey area of "suspect", jeweller made one-off's, theatre made items, stuff I made in grade 9 metal shop class , etc... again, armed with detailed info, collectors can draw their own conclusions.

Better to start recording these now while the number of Canadian repros are relatively small. In this respect, our British friends are positively screwed.

[DavidS]

Originally Posted by WJ Miller

Larry, thanks for mentioning the "Birks" mark on your badge! I had a vague recollection of seeing "Birks" marked Essex Tank badges before, but could but find an example.
So,
"small rivets" = Birks,
"large rivets" = Scully,
"cast brass" = disappointment

Spent most of yesterday & today mounting and framing badges and came across two Essex. Both are 'large rivets': one is unmarked, the other is 'BIRKS' marked. And isn't Larry's badge on the project page a 'big riveter'?

As for retooling the small rivet die to make a large rivet pattern die, the crown is wholly different as well, so don't know if that would hold.

My only other observation today is, man, I have a lot of badges! I need to have a garage sale.

[WJ Miller]

David, in the example I posted above, Larry's badge is the small rivets. Anyway, your Birk's "large rivets" displaces my theory

Re: Retooling. You are correct, there are other subtle differences (crown, type, pebbling in the outside oval, ground below tank) but in overall shape the badges are of identical proportions. Which makes me think that the masters share some basic matrix. I wish I knew more about how the dies/badges were actually manufactured. I'm finding I am getting more interested in that than the actual badges themselves.

Let me know when you are having the Garage sale... (any extra Kangaroo badges going for cheap!?)

[Bill A]

Originally Posted by WJ Miller

Bill,

What problems do you forsee with listing known or suspect reproductions? Is there an issue with libel/slander? Or just a concern over accuracy of information?

I think detailing (known)genuine and suspect badges with an in depth analysis of their construction, as David did here, and leaving it to collectors to decide solves both problems.

Speaking strictly of obvious repros... If a currently known counterfeiter (let's call it what it is), has a problem with the anaylsis, isn't the onus on them then to speak up and ask for a correction? (never going to happen) Perhaps I missing something here?

I can see a lot of badges maybe falling into a grey area of "suspect", jeweller made one-off's, theatre made items, stuff I made in grade 9 metal shop class , etc... again, armed with detailed info, collectors can draw their own conclusions.

Better to start recording these now while the number of Canadian repros are relatively small. In this respect, our British friends are positively screwed.

Hello Bill, You have identified one major concern, that of libel, or more precisely a threat of a legal action suggesting the forum is libelous. The problem is need to defend oneself, even if the threat is vexatious.
The documentation of the copy / fantasy badges must be sound, researched, and as far as possible attributable information about the counterfeit or fantasy badge. It must clearly state or illustrate and list the characteristics that make it a phoney. I have added fantasy as a category, as these badges are not strictly speaking counterfeit. For example, the Canadian Parachute Corps gun metal finish badge that has shown up in the last year, is it a copy, or a fantasy piece? It is not even close to the types of badges issued to the Canadian Parachute Corps, but it is being represented as a badge worn by them.
A second concern is copyright, in particular image rights. Images for the repro gallery should not be lifted and used on the forum without the express permission of the owner of the image. The concern is images from sources like ebay. In late winter I was in touch with several regimental museums about cloth insignia. Two of them sent me back images of cloth from my own collection that I had posted to various sites. I had not given anyone permission to use the images in any manner other than as references for that particular post. This is incredibly difficult to police, but ethically, especially when the post is about reproductions, the images should be either created exrpessly for the forum, or have express persmission for use.
The mechanism for listing copies / fantasy badges already exists in the Canadian Badge Registry. Forum members can email images and documentation to me or Mike and the information will be added to the registry. An example of a repro badge listing exists in the Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment page. The page could have a text explanation of the repro characteristics added. The image could also be modified to highlight the characteristics.
This would cover the 1920 - 1952 period badges. A list of reproduction CEF badges could be pinned, or added to the CEF gallery to indicate reproductions.

[Bill A]

This string is a highlight of the importance of the B&C MBF. Until this week, the Essex Regiment Tank badge had been displayed in my WW2 collection without much thought. Now, it is one of at least two significant patterns, that were not documented in any reference. Thanks one and all for your contributions.

[DavidS]

Bill A.:

Regarding the 'fakes/reproductions' inclusions and the question of liability, I think this is a worry only if we directly link to or use illustrations from a seller's listing, or identify a particular seller or sellers. I don't think the intention (no matter how tempting) is to do that anyway, but if push came to shove, I am sure we would have no problem photographing and posting our own pix of 'hall of shame badges' if need be.

However, my thought regarding adding the fakes advisory to the Canbadge project page ran more toward a simple text section, something along the lines of a check line at the top of each entry ("Reproductions/fakes: (known, suspected, not known)") and a comments box where needed.

For some/most badges, like the GGHG, this would be as simple as

"Reproductions/fakes: known

"GGHG badges were made in white metal only. Any brass version of this badge is a modern replica."

For others like the Canadian Parachute Bttn, it could be more detailed:

"Reproductions/fakes: known

"1) Bakelite badges have been reproduced. As this is the most expensive version of the OR badge, significant caution is advised. Reproductions usually lack the raised, circular mold mark on the reverse. Some reproductions have metal lugs.

"2) Brass OR badges have been heavily replicated/faked. A fantasy version "tall parachute/tall wings" type of this badge, similar in size to the officer's pattern, is one of the most commonly found dud badges around, struck in almost every type of metal including copper, silver, gilding metal, brass and white metal. These badges have large wings and voiding between the wings and the parachute, whereas authentic brass badges have squat wings and no voiding. Authentic badges are lugged and not slidered.

"As well, at least two excellent copy brass OR badges have been created for reenactors, with one currently available commercially.

"3) Officer's badges: authentic badges have white metal overlays for the parachute and scroll riveted to a brass base. Metals are never the reverse."

With the CanParas, I think the above leaves enough 'secret stuff' in the vault so that a repop artist isn't tempted to try a better fake. As well, I'm sure we could even get the OR badge replicator to give us an okay to either post a sample picture or link to his site, as he is wholly up front about these being reproduction badges, or just buy one, photograph it and post it ourselves.

I know there is some expressed member consternation/concern over posting specific details about how to tell good badges from bad because of the 'makes the faker a better faker' worry, but some (most?) of these repros -- esp. those being flogged from the U.K. -- are pretty obvious and a basic description would hopefully be enough.

We could also maybe have a primer page just on 1960s Gaunt die repops and/or repops in general, to save newcomers from trying to search though the forums for info like this for specific badges.

[Bill A]

Thanks David. As you say, the likelihood of a libel action is small, but unfortunately, the threat of one may be enough to shut the forum down. The site is being run as a hobby and as such has limited resources and tolerance for unwanted hassles.
The Canadian Badge Registry has a web page for each regiment or corps, and the repro section can be easily added as required. The format of the type of entry is open. It may simpley be a text notation as you have suggested for the GGHG. Or, it may be an entry with images and text. Using the 1 CACR as an example, there is a repro page with an image of the repro badge. Additions can be made, with text explanations, more images etc, as needed.
There is some discussion of adding an index page for the Canadian Badge Registry, which would be a good place for a preface and general information about Canadian king's crown badges. That would certainly be an appropriate place for some information about reproduction / fantasy badge issues such as the Gaunt restrikes.
Forum members with information on reproductions, (text, images, or text and images), please submit to Mike, or me.

[WJ Miller]

I think images (in addition to a well written, thorough descriptions) are certainly needed in some cases. If we take the 1CACR reproductions as the continuing example. There is no way I could adequately describe in words the more subtle differences. A picture, if supplied by a member from his/her own collection is worth a thousand words. I agree with Bill that this can be facilitated through the current Canadian Index, with a separate tab for "restrikes/reproductions/suspect" badges.

The origins of many suspect badges are unknown, so it could be difficult (and perhaps incorrect) to label them as outright "frauds". However, that is not to say, they can't be categorized as "not official/known issue". I can't see such a statement as that being libelous in anyway, if someone does take offense, they would be welcome to correct the identification. After all we should be sharing the knowledge.

Bill, I will follow up with you on additional information for the 1CACR page and an image comparison chart.