Sliders v Lugs on Inf cap badges

[KLR]

I suspect John has seen the term Universal Service Dress Hat in the same place as I have; The ledgers of the Royal Army Clothing dept (TNA WO 359).
Somewhere in there - I'm away from my notes at the moment - there is also an authorisation for home based units (Volunteers) to wear that particular headgear.

[grumpy]

Thank you.

I do not doubt for a moment that the felt was worn by all sorts at Home, but wonder if it was called universal? And if so, why? Neither Barthorp [JSAHR] nor Chappell deals adequately with the nomenclature of the felt. Joe Sweeney calls it the "Hat, Service Dress" for overseas use only. He calls the Brodrick the "Cap, Forage, Universal". The Brodrick was certainly more universal than the felt.

If someone has the full Clothing Regs 1904 [my extract is badges only] these may give better insight into what, to me, is a mystery. The previous CR is too early, and the next too late.

[Charlie585]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Ry,
I'm not sure if I've picked up 100% on your point, however what I'm pretty sure about is that the change of fittings (long slider, standard slider or lugs) would only be a guide to when the badge was produced! I feel that the lugged badges shown fitted to the Brodricks, have a simple enough explanation! Although the fittings to the rear of the badges may have been revised, badges already in use, would IMO stayed in use and on the introduction of new forms of headdress, serving soldiers would just take their old badge and fit it to their new hat? Lugged badges in stock would be used up and although sliders appear to have been introduced c.1903, probably the first soldiers to fit long slidered badges to the Brodrick would have been recruits? Old soldiers get pretty attached to badges, having to polish them each day! To disgard their "Pride and Joy" just because the "Thingy" on the back was altered, would not of happened (IMO) in many cases! Even on the change of crown or cypher, it would take quite a while, possibly many years for a complete change over to the "New" badge or fitting?



Andy

Cheers Andy,

My point was really an aside from the ongoing discussion in order to try and establish the time frame between a new pattern of badge for a particular unit being approved and coming into service. I may have muddied the waters a little I'm afraid by linking the enquiry to the general discussion on loops / sliders so maybe it would be best if I continue this in another thread (That's if the forum can bear another THR thread) Thanks for your reply and to all for the interesting info so far shared in this one.

Regards to all.

Ry

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by grumpy

I take it by slouch hat you mean the headdress described in Army Order 10 of 1902 which introduced Service Dress? And also that by slouch hat you mean the "hat of thick felt with wide brim" of those Orders?

Yes that is what I meant and yes, I may well be reading it wrongly. I am away from my notes at the moment and will look back into it later in the week. Your post with regard to A.O. 10 of 1902 is perfectly clear.


In the scan I attached, confirming the introduction of sliders the Universal headdress and the NP forage cap are referred to seperately leading me to believe that, at least according to the RACD, the NP forage cap was not referred to as the universal headdress.

I also seem to recall that in the entry for the approval of the socket for the slouch hat that the headdress is referred to in the ledger as the universal headdress. I shall dig that out later and we shall see where the discussion goes. In the meantime if anyone has anything to add on the matter I shall be happy to see it.

John

[grumpy]

Many thanks. I have PM's Joe Sweeney, an acknowledged and published world expert on SD to see if he can shine some light.

Unfortunately, although I have hundreds of pages of RACD as digifotos, I was only looking for "trade" badges and scarlet tunics and frocks, so no help at all.

There is a dead ref. to CR 1904 on Google but it cannot be followed.

More if I get more, it would be good to get to the bottom of headdress nomenclature.

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by grumpy

More if I get more, it would be good to get to the bottom of headdress nomenclature.

I would love to get to the bottom of this also, I expect to be re-united with my material including the 1904 Dress Regulations on Thursday. Will follow up then.

I look forward to any help you can provide.

John

[grumpy]

Will do: I know you mean Clothing not Dress! The felt hat was listed as "Public" clothing, quite odd compared with all other headdress which was "Personal". I just wonder why ..... there is always a reason.

I really look forward to your extract, in fact would love a scan.

My long run of extracts concentrates on "trade" and "rank" badges.

[ncc]

interesting pic from the green tiger oct 1904.titled 'the new suggested uniform'
Bob

[grumpy]

Major article JSAHR LX 1982 Winter 244, re. Brodrick, BWCox & MPrevezer:

" .................. in general the badges were as for the field service cap ...... new badges were necessary for
RB
KRR
MP Foot and Mounted re. titles
RA re grenade
MPSC
Border
19H
RIR
16L


no ho ho!

don't know what to make of that now, do I !!!!!!!!!!

[KLR]

Yes, that artile is a little garbled, try
Linaker, DDA, 2004, ‘Field [Service] Cap Badges’, Crown Imperial, 113, 27-29.

[grumpy]

as I am a beginner scrabbling around could you please say what is wrong with the article if possible to do in a short time and with a few words? I would be very grateful ...... JSAHR articles were peer-reviewed and SHOULD be kosher!

[John Mulcahy]

I have had a look at the references I have.

In relation to the post I made as post # 16 of this thread. I think it is clear that when the entry in the RACD list of changes mentions the fitting of sliders to the badges for the FSH & universal headdress, that the term universal headdress is used to describe the “slouch hat”.

I say this because it specifically calls out universal headdress and NP forage cap as separate items in this entry. It also mentions that for cavalry the field cap badge will be used in the FSH and universal headdress, which indicates to me that the universal headdress and the field cap are two different items for the purposes of this RACD register of changes entry. In addition, the stipulation that helmet plate centre with slider will be used for this “so-called” universal headdress with a socket. I think this rules out the Glengarry as being the universal headdress mentioned as I am not aware of a socket being used in this cap.

I see at least two other individual references in the RACD register of changes using the word “universal” in relation to the “slouch hat”. They are attached below.

1. The depositing of standard patterns for “Headdress Service Dress (abroad) complete with sockets, all ranks Universal”. The words Headdress and Universal are underlined in the ledger entry. Scan below. WO359/12

2. The declaration of the slouch hat as obsolete is noted in WO 359/ P 262 (scan attached) here the item is noted as 5048B/1902 Headdress with Socket Unl S. Dress” I think the abbreviation is “unl” standing for universal .

Now whether anyone other than the RACD register of changes called this headdress the universal headdress I do not know, if fact I think this might be the only place that did so.


I need to disappoint a little now,

I was misguided in saying I had the 1904 clothing regulations; what I have is the 1914 clothing regulations, but the 1904 dress regulations. None of which help this discussion of course. I have looked in the closest reference I have - the 1903 PVCN. This does not help answer the question. I have copied both pages referring to headdress for service dress and nowhere do I see the term universal headdress.

Finally I need to acknowledge that the RACD register is not always consistent as the entry for first sealing of the socket for the slouch hat shows. Here, the headdress is referred to as “Service Headdress” (scan below WO359/12/p262).

Also I include a scan of WO359/12/PAGE 78 which I think might be the near genesis of the instructions to fit sliders to cap badges, here the hat is again simply "the service dress hat”.

So what does one think, do I have it right that the reference to the universal headdress in WO359/ does refer to the slouch hat? I think it is clear but may have it wrong.

I look forward to your comments

As an interesting follow up to the question of sliders WO359/12/P127 has an entry dated 16/1/03 “ Badges with v/shank - it has been decided to let all miscellaneous badges on order stand, so far as vertical shank is concerned only cancelling those that are for Infantry of the line when the centre plate of helmet can be used” I believe this may refer to the abandonment of the idea of using the helmet plate centre with slider for the FSH & service dress headdress.


John

[grumpy]

Marvellous reply, absolutely marvellous, and thank you so much for making the effort. I am gathering as much info. as I can ....... this includes the JSAHR Cox and Pevezner re. the Brodrick and its badges, and also a fellow member is getting me the Crown Imperial Linneker. I will go back to my 500+ images of RACD to see if I get lucky enough to include any gems 1902 to 1908 adjacent to my rank and "trade" research .... don't hold your breath.

Our groping around is caused by the authorities groping around 110 years ago, and historians not having ALL the relevant official data when they did their work.

Now going to have a look at your scans, and again, many thanks indeed. I am well aware nobody has to do this!

[John Mulcahy]

We are all learning together, I can give you Maj. David Linaker's article in CI if you need it and I would love to see the JSAHR when you get it if you would be kind enough to share it.

sincerely

John

[chief_chum]

This is great stuff; but still pretty confusing!

Just trying to get my head around all this, can any of you set the main points out in a simple form; ie:

1894 - Glengarry ceases to be worn by non-Scots Infantry and is replaced by Forage Cap.

Does John's note, “Headdress Service Dress (abroad) complete with sockets, all ranks Universal”, mean that the Slouch Hat was only intended to be worn with SD overseas?

I can find no photographs of Suffolk Regiment men wearing the Slouch Hat with SD in the UK but that may be because both Regular battalions were still overseas and had not returned home by the time the Slouch Hat becomes obsolete...