"Restrikes From Original Dies"

[magpie]

The valve would be a different voiding punch for that void leaving the valve perhaps needing another tool change set up and aonother operation just to leave it, there is also a mark on the wheel rim where the valve is or would be and if you click on the first picture the dot is sitting just on top of the A ,then if you click on the next 4 pictures you will see the original place where they started to engrave the A just on the left and slightly above the A and the dot is the flash reflecting on the tip.
Andy

[orasot]

I had a look at all 4 of these badges last night & they are all from the same die, they all have exactly the same slightly double stamped A, this is what Magpie means, plus other features are identical, I used a loupe to look at these too so nothing to do with my eyes!! Valve or no valve would be decided in a following process of stamping out the voids, creating slight differences but the planchette from the original die would be the same as these 4 are, so I agree if the Woodward & the other with a Woodward type slider are genuine then the other 2 would be restrikes from the original dies and they are thicker metal too!
Wilf.

[btns]

Originally Posted by Neibelungen

Some time around the 1830's I think with the introduction of the knuckle press, which meant you weren't required to use direct force to raise the tonnage of compression in the process.(ie drop press)

Hobbing had been around for a long time in the button/coin industry on iron dies, but with the developments up to 1850 in tool steels and hydraulics it becomes far more practical to implement in larger scale dies.

It also coinsides with the development of milling machines and simple copy lathes to reduce much of the manual work required.

Thank you very much for your reply.

[Chrisr]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Ry,
If they are the original dies, then they would be true "Restrikes" - A Badge struck from original die but outside the official period of wear!

Andy

If they are from the same original die and the same gauge and composition of metals what's the difference other than age?

Would it be fair to say the categorization of badges is:

Genuine (struck from original approved dies during the time the regiment/corps was in existence and worn in the unit)

Restrikes (struck from original approved dies in the same gauge and composition of metals but after the regiment/corps ceased to exist - genuine but without provenance)

Copies and fakes (struck from unapproved dies purely for the collectors' market)

Fantasy (the badge never originally existed)

Cheers
Chris

[2747andy]

Chris,
this is the point I am trying to get across and why I started the thread! The use of the term "Restrike" gives IMO some false credence to what are realy "Fakes or Copies". When it comes to "Restrikes" they are not common at all! Even when you compare Gaunt B'ham marked badges to genuine Gaunt items, almost all the ones I have viewed have come from different (New) dies!

Andy

[Chrisr]

Andy,

Yes I understand that. As I mentioned earlier the problem is the mis-use of terminology in that badges sold as restrikes are in fact copies or fakes by my definitions above.

But as you have acknowledged we cannot absolutely rule out restrikes per my definition, which you call "true restrikes". Is a true restrike an acceptable badge?

I have eschewed the Gaunt Birmingham badges of the pre 1970 designs, given the advice of yourself and other members that most are from new dies, rather than restrikes from original dies.

Cheers
Chris

[2747andy]

Chris,
I cannot see the point of as you call a "True Restrike" other than to deceive? As you mention, once the unit no longer exists, there would be very few reasons to legitimately produce badges from that die in later years? Perhaps as in the case of some units they get "Reformed" or at the MOD's request? But that would be few and far between.

As already established most of the older dies, despite being held by the manufacturer seem to remain the property of the commissioner and therefore restrict the manufacturers knocking out badges as they please? Hence why in the 1970's Gaunt probably for legal reasons produced "New Dies" for their "Reproduction" Gaunt B'ham marked badges, which included the "Birmingham Mint" series of badges? I think it is only in more recent years that badge makers have produced badges for both MOD and the collectors market (LB&B and FIRMIN)?

I think with regards to Cap Badges (not PTGs), the thoughts that the 1970's was the start of the "restrike era" are incorrect and IMO more like the dawn of Fakes, Copies and Repros!

Andy

[fougasse1940]

Would some of these be what you are looking for?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nk...&_ssn=ecsnaith
Cap badges, new KC amongst others, sold by E.C.Snaith - Military Tailors, Outfitters and Medallists. Proud to be part of the Kashket group of companies including Kashket & Partners, Firmin & Sons and E.C.Snaith.

Rgds,

Thomas.

[Phillip Herring]

Does anybody here remember the dealers' lists of restrike badges from the 1970s and 1980s?
I still have some and the badges were usually priced in the 1 - 2 GBP range. Hardly worth the expense and effort of making new dies for ALL of the common badges as well as the rarer badges.
I honestly believe that the restrikes of that era were exactly that - restruck from original dies. The more recent reproductions made from newly made dies are NOT "restrikes".

Phil

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Thomas,
to be honest, I think "Restrikes" are rare and most fakes and copies from 1970s onwards have been struck from brand spanking new dies!

Andy

Hi Andy,

I can only speak re: A/A badges and while some of the original dies used to make the cancelled TAVR III badges may have been pressed into modern day service I would agree that the other dodgy A/A items do come from newly created dies with the badges being made by big name manufacturers.

Regards

Chris

[SRDJUG]

Discussion is good, and a little patience before passing judgement on a badge, or other piece of kit.

We had an illuminating experience last evening in our military history group, when our resident "expert" on South African medals and badges declared a "sealed" box of 100 great-coat buttons from the KOCR as being fakes...they had just arrived last week from the unit's quartermaster stores, where dozens of the same boxes had collected dust in a back room since being ordered by the regiment in 1953.

"X" is an unknown quantity, and "Spurt" is a drip under pressure!

[Peter Brydon]

In the absence of 100% provenance, at the end of the day I believe it is up to the individual collector to weigh all the available evidence and to come a decision as to if they personally are happy with regard to the badges in their collection ( although what they are happy with may change over time and with experience ).

I think we all sometimes have the occasional doubts about the odd badge in our own collections, but if all so called "experts" were right all the time then there would not be anything like the amount of litigation that there is on all sort of subjects.

P.B.

[halliford_bend]

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn

Andy, there is a post somewhere referring to a retired RAOC officer acquiring original dies in the late 60s and selling badges made from them. He advertised in Soldier Magazine and I think Exchange & Mart. The address was J A Morrison, Thurnby Leicestershire.

Found it

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...light=Morrison

Certainly Thurnby was a big centre of Militaria dealing in the 60's/70's. I remember driving there from Norfolk in the early 70's to visit a big depot, where anything military under the sun was for sale. My son,then about 15, was enchanted by the rows of thigh length boots, as worn by the Household Cavalry, which were vlined up there.
They did reproduction badges too, but when you look back at the products of those early days, it is hard to imagine that we could ever have been fooled by those awful efforts !!
halliford_bend