1916 GM Fakes

[Alan O]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WW1-THE-QUEENS...1%7C240%3A1318

This type of badge was mentioned a while back but I could not find a photo.
This is a fake Queens 1916 GM or, with a bit of black paint, a fake Queens TF badge.

In this case the obvious give away is the fake Gaunt mark. Even if the size of the lettering was not wrong, Gaunt did not mark the sliders on their WW1 badges and certainly not economy badges. They also come without the maker's name.

The slider is typically short and shaped as those from the same faker. The lamb's fleece is noticably 'spottier' than the genuine article. I used to have one of these and the brass was noticably yellower underneath the artificial aging.

[cbuehler]

Thanks for the heads up. I am sure the more experienced collectors would not be fooled by this, but it is just one more stumbling block for the novices. That "fleece" is indeed poorly executed on that badge.

CB

[Jeff Mc William]

Queens (1916 all brass).tif.jpg
Alan. How's this one ? I hope its a good 'un, I got it from Wallis & Wallis about 20 years ago !!
Sorry only this view available. Jeff

[Alan O]

Jeff,

It looks fine to me. I take it that the badge has a slider?

Alan

[Jeff Mc William]

Alan. Yes it did, tho' I no longer have it. Just the photo and a memory
I'm afraid in those days I was not as careful as I should have been when purchasing or record keeping, so I guess I was lucky not to have been lumbered with a load of re-strikes when I came to sell.(altho' I did have a few). I too was taken in by Gaylor's list and the proliferation of so called "1916 all brass economy issues"..which weren't ! However, I still occasionally see these in reputable dealers lists, and I wonder just who are their "experts" and have they not seen KLR's thread !? Regards. Jeff

[KLR]

Jeff, I haven't produced a "thread". I'm working on an article about 1916 economies based on the official records with a friend. We hope to publish it next year.

[Jeff Mc William]

Sorry Julian. I was not referring to your article (which I look forward to) but to the extracts from ACD records which you quoted in an earlier thread. Apologies. Jeff

[Alan O]

I am afraid that all too often dealers are not as expert as we are led to believe. Now that more and more official records are coming to light there is more primary source material out there to confirm or refute what was written nearly 40 years ago.

1916 economy badges are a niche area. I must admit that I am learning a lot from Forum mebers. If it was not for the thread on the Pictou Highlanders in the Canadian section then I would be unable to explain the existance of a genuine WW1 brass 'Seaforth Highlanders' badge. As it is I now know that they are WW1 badges but for the Pictou Highlanders.

Alan

[Jeff Mc William]

Alan. Yes, and ditto for the 42nd Inf.Bn (Royal Highlanders) of Montreal Quebec.
http://kaisersbunker.com/cef/headgear Their all-brass "Black Watch" badge is a lovely shade of milk-chocolate brown which looks (to me) otherwise identical to the UK wm badge. Jeff

[Alan O]

Jeff,

A badge commonly sold by UK dealers for £100 as a very rare 1916 all brass Black Watch economy badge! I wonder what a Canadian dealer would sell it to me for as a Canadian badge!

Alan

[Jeff Mc William]

Originally Posted by Alan Owen

Jeff,

A badge commonly sold by UK dealers for £100 as a very rare 1916 all brass Black Watch economy badge! I wonder what a Canadian dealer would sell it to me for as a Canadian badge!

Alan

Norfolk all brass.tif.jpgR.Warwicks all brass.tif.jpg

Alan. Yes, I wonder. Actually, regarding the patina of the "Black Watch" badge I referred to ; I thought someone might come back at me to say that it was an OSD badge..which I suppose it could have been !? But certainly the two above viz, the Norfolk and Royal Warwickshire (the latter not in Gaylor) were also of a nice milk-chocolate brown colour. I also had another Norfolk in yellow-brass and,(if I may be allowed to "name-drop") when I showed them to the late Hugh King some time ago he said ; "Those two were made in 1916..that one (the yellow-brass) was made yesterday !"
PS: Both had sliders but, curiously, the R.Warwicks was two-piece, ie with a separate scroll attached. regards. Jeff

[Alan O]

As far as I am aware there was never an OSD Black Watch officers badge. The type of headgear that they wore never included one with a bronze badge. I stand by to be corrected but I think that I am right. The collection of Officers badges in the Mess at Warminster shows a nice silver one.

A 2 part RWarcs is not a 1916 economy badge. The Norfolks were produced in one piece brass but the RWarcs were not. Either it was an Officers badge or a fake. Officers badges were generally cast bronze (ie solid backed) and fitted with foldable tangs or loops for a split pin. The slidered fakes are sold on ebay by a well known repro fraudster. I am sorry to say that I have seen them on dealers lists as exceptionally rare economy badges. Being 2 piece is a bit of a give away that they were not.

I used to have a yellow brass Norfolks with the fake Gaunt mark on the slider.

Alan

[Jeff Mc William]

Alan. Of course, I bow to your superior knowledge and experience. All I can say in my defence is that W&W were keen enough to accept them back when it finally came for me to sell my collection in 1977, although they did return some, these were not amoung them. Jeff
PS: they were both die-struck and "hollow backed".

[Alan O]

Jeff,

I am sure that the Norfolks was right. The fakes have poorly executed detail on the face of Britannia and she has a real hook nose. I will see if I can find a picture.

The RWarcs does not sit right with me for lots of reasons. The RWarcs was one of the regts with the most Battalions. The relative scarcity of what should have been one of the most common badges (if it had indeed been made in all brass) should cause alarm bells to ring. The 1916 economy Essex, Suffolks and so on are much more common but had fewer Bns. Now there are no hard and fast rules here but this disparity strikes me as odd.

The fact that 2 part fakes exist on ebay while the intent of economy badges was to simplify production by replacing badges with overlaid parts in their design with one piece, amplifies this point. I have yet to see any 'economy' badge that replaced a 2 part badge with tagged pieces. Only those designs that formerly had brasing holes (Leinster/Essex/Suffolks/Inniskillings/East yorks/RScots etc) seem to have been produced. These are complex badges to make with often several parts and would require a significant amount of skill to produce. Interestingly there are a couple of exceptions here - the Royal Irish Fusiliers being one of them. Although a 1970s fake exists which is based on a collar badge design, I am unaware of a genuine RIF economy.

All white metal (RWK/BW/Seaforths/DLI/Kings) and those designs with tagged scrolls or parts (West Yorks, South Staffs/KSLI) do not seem to have been changed at all. presumably this was because that there was no significant saving in man hours.

I will now step off the soap box.....

Alan

[Sonofacqms]

Alan, keep on the soapbox, as all you have said I heartily agree with, my only comment about the Norfolk Regt is that this is the correct badge, the ones I am not happy about are the ones with the very long ends to the scrolls which seem to be prolific online, recently I saw a cast brass version of this badge for sale online. None of these long scroll type that I have ever seen have brazing holes, some people have said that these are manufacturers variations, but to my way of thinking these seem to have appeared in the last few years, maybe I'm wrong but neither my bi-metal nor 1916 economy have these long scrolls.