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  #91  
Old 31-03-17, 10:14 AM
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Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
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Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman View Post
Just found this Toby. Its from British Infantry Uniform since 1660 by Michael Barthorp. Cpl Grenadier Guards 1838, i believe that underneath the Fur cover is a Grenade.
Andy
Brilliant stuff Andy, I know that image and had forgotten that it showed the peaked forage cap in use for all ranks at that time. I agree that there is almost certainly a brass badge (they were not GM then but a very yellow, so-called 'candlestick brass') under the fur, just as in the pictures in the drawings above.
This shows that unlike the line, Foot Guards had two patterns of undress cap, a forage cap (stiffened and set up with a metal badge) and a field cap (cloth and stowed in personal equipment).
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  #92  
Old 31-03-17, 06:26 PM
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I think you will find the grenade both as weapon and insignia pre-dates the Grenadier Guards by a significant margin, as I have tried to explain, and the insignia was really just part and parcel of marking the troops appearance as specialised. It seems that the word itself originated in Spain and that the spread of the grenadier influence ran from Spain and Italy, then France and into Britain and Russia by 1700, via the War of Spanish Succession. John Churchill's British Army had no grenadiers, but his adversaries did. Therefore any influence of heraldry would probably be later and merely state what colours the grenade should be on regalia and regimental colours once the plain white embroidery on caps became more garishly embellished, perhaps as part of the dandified Regency period. Flank companies were ceased after the Crimean War thus leaving Fusiliers and Grenadier Guards to together carry on most (but not all) of the dress distinctions associated with grenadiers.
The oldest newspaper article I found with the word "Grenadier" is 1677 in a Prussian / Danish / Swedish context.
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  #93  
Old 01-04-17, 07:49 AM
jf42 jf42 is offline
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"29th Returned with my Lord by Hounslow Heath, where we saw the newly raised army encamped...His Majesty and a world of company were in the field, and the whole army in battalia; a very glorious sight. Now were brought into service a new sort of soldiers, called grenadiers, who were dexterous in flinging hand grenadoes, every one having a pouch full. they had furred caps with coped crowns like Janizaries, which made them look very fierce, and some had long hoods hanging down behind, as we picure fools. Their clothing being likewise piebald, yellow and red."

Diary of John Evelyn, June 1677

Traditionally, I believe, Field Marshal Raimundo Montecuccoli in the Austrian service first introduced grenadier units into the Imperial Army in 1664. Presumably as a result of the longstanding confrontation with the Ottoman empire along the Danube border. Similarly, in general works I have read that infantry grenadier companies were first formed in the French army circa 1670. (Knotl; Mollo)

Formation of units of infantry grenadiers should be viewed as distinct from the use of grenades in siege warfare, which dates from the 15th, although they required expert handling. Ottoman forces had specialist units that used grenades made of glass (I am ignorant as to their use at sea).

The date of the name coined by the Spanish, from the weapon's resemblance to the pomegranate in size and shape, very likely should also be viewed separately from the process by which hand grenades came to be adopted throughout the armies of Christian Europe.

It would be fascinating to identify where the symbol of the grenade with flaming fuse first originated. My guess iwould be either France or Austria - going for the obvious. Curiously, both seem to have adopted the grenadier cap comparitively late.

Last edited by jf42; 01-04-17 at 09:37 AM.
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