British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Anodised Aluminium Badges

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 18-03-17, 04:47 PM
bess55's Avatar
bess55 bess55 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,814
Default 4/7 Dragoon Guards AA SNCO'S badge

Gents, does anyone have any information on the 4/7th Dragoon Guards senior NCO's AA cap badge for the side cap?

This badge is as the 4/7 arm badge (i.e. the large expanded star) which usually has lugs on, however this badge has a slider. So in effect the arm badge with a slider instead of lugs and worn as a cap badge.

I have an example of this badge with the slider marked W M Dowler Birmingham.

Can anyone give me any info about this badge and when it may have been worn. I am guessing for short period in the mid 80's?

Regards to all

Bess
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 18-03-17, 05:13 PM
yorkstone's Avatar
yorkstone yorkstone is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Staffordshire
Posts: 1,067
Default

Anodised badges like these were worn on our cross belts of the Patten worn by sgts and above in white metal.

Mine is on two lugs worn on a black plastic pouch worn with Blues photo attached was taken of me at St James Palace 1984

Sorry no shot of the back pouch

Hope this helps

Stephen
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image.jpg (31.6 KB, 86 views)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 18-03-17, 05:31 PM
Mike H's Avatar
Mike H Mike H is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,695
Default

Cor blimey Steve ,you look about 10 there.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 18-03-17, 05:49 PM
yorkstone's Avatar
yorkstone yorkstone is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Staffordshire
Posts: 1,067
Default

Thanks Mike I was 19.

Stephen
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 18-03-17, 07:20 PM
Mike H's Avatar
Mike H Mike H is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,695
Default

I may go for slightly earlier than mid 80`s Bess. Do we have a timescale of dates for the WM Dowler Bham mark. its certainly narrower than the plain Dowler Birmingham mark.
Steve ,do you recall the thread regarding shaped backings rather than the maroon diamond ? Billy picked up a silver/gilt/enamel Officers collar last weekend, with the star shaped backing. SNCO`s beret or cap ?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 18-03-17, 07:27 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,730
Default

I have seen these before. I suspect a maker's error putting a slider on an arm badge. To my knowledge the regt never wore such a badge in the cap.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 18-03-17, 09:08 PM
tonyb's Avatar
tonyb tonyb is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Huytonshire
Posts: 3,266
Default

I've heard mention of a collar sized badge worn by snco in the cap, is this correct?
Tony.
__________________
For Christopher night night son.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 18-03-17, 09:52 PM
Mike H's Avatar
Mike H Mike H is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,695
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
I've heard mention of a collar sized badge worn by snco in the cap, is this correct?
Tony.
yes Tony it is correct. Sgts and above wore a collar badge in the headgear. This is carried on today by the Royal Dragoon Guards.
Yorkstone maybe able to provide us with the actual reason why. Probably something to do with the majority of Officers being killed in a battle and the Sgts taking over. That's the usual reason for NCO`s being accorded Officers privliges.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 18-03-17, 10:39 PM
yorkstone's Avatar
yorkstone yorkstone is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Staffordshire
Posts: 1,067
Default

During 1980's Officers wore officers collar badge in the berets on star shaped maroon backing both metal and bullion badges.

Sgts wore standard OR Sgt's collar badges in White Metal inthe Beret on the diamond /Turned square backing maroon patch this started I believe during WW2. Earliest I have seen Sgts wearing collar badges in photographs I have seen and also around introduction of armoured corp beret.

In my day Sgt Majors wore officer Quality Maroon sweaters as well a cavalry thing,

standard Size cap badges are worn on peaked caps Sgts badges are the same as troopers Anodised Aluniniu, the RSM wore officer quality cap and collar badges in 2 dress back in the 80's I was RSM's Driver operator and HQ Squadron leaders driver operator occasionally the Colonel.

Troopers could wear metal cap badges instead of A/A on the beret with the sole permission of the RSM woe betide anyone with a unpolished badge.

Regards

Stephen

Last edited by yorkstone; 19-03-17 at 11:22 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 19-03-17, 07:26 PM
bess55's Avatar
bess55 bess55 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,814
Default

I have had this badge in my collection for some years now and wasn't ever really sure what it is. I always doubted it was an error as substituting lugs for a slider is a deliberate act and not accidental. Colour variations invariably I would agree frequently are however.

I was recently lucky enough to read a collection of notes by the late Walter Lambert, which were prep for his articles on anodised badges for Crown Imperial. It was here in a draft article on anodised cap badges that I saw mention of this badge. (this was a follow up article to an earlier publication)Quote:-

'I should also have included in the cavalry listing the fact that senior NCO's of the 4/7th Dragoon Guards wore in their SIDE HATS what appears to be the regimental arm badge. The badge is identical to the arm bade but has a slider instead of the normal arm fixing loops. The one in my collection bears the name W Dowler Birmingham on the slider'

The note is dated March 1996.

So if nobody has any knowledge of this badge - and I must confess this source is the only mention of it I can find - my next port of call will be the 4/7 DG museum in York.

Thank you for your time CHAPS.

Bess
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 19-03-17, 08:05 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,730
Default

4TH/7TH side cap here:

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=28849
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 19-03-17, 08:29 PM
Mike H's Avatar
Mike H Mike H is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,695
Default

No images of it. There was one on Bosleys a while ago,with a collar size badge fitted. Proves nothing though. Certainly doesnt dissprove the information that Bess has.
Could well have been worn for the tenure of 1 or 2 COs. From what hes said to me and the notes hes seen,there was only one production run by Dowler and no other maker produced them.
Most reference books state the beret badge is worn on a maroon diamond,but there is physical and photographic evidence that at some point in the 80s that the backing was shaped overlapping the edge of the badge. Yorkstone actually served with the guy whose image shows this.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 19-03-17, 09:16 PM
bess55's Avatar
bess55 bess55 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,814
Default

What may be the salient point is that he particularly mentions that it is for SENIOR NCO's on the side cap not NCO'S - there is a difference. This may be important - it certainly would be in some other regiments. Now I am only going on Mr Lambert notes and have no way of attaching provenance to his research, however his reputation should lend some credibility.

The whole reason for this post is to attempt to expand this single strand information as its the only mention I have ever had of this item as a recognised badge at all, let alone cap badge in its own right.

It may be a one off run, for a limited use but clearly it is not striking a cord with anyone. So he may well have been mistaken or misinformed - who knows.

Many thanks chaps.

Bess

Last edited by bess55; 19-03-17 at 09:17 PM. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 19-03-17, 09:44 PM
cavalryman cavalryman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: England
Posts: 624
Default 4th/7th side cap

Hi Bess, I took a photo of this cap in the York museum, however it had an other ranks collar badge fitted. i don't know if senior ranks wore a different badge in it to what i saw and photographed, i will try and locate the photo if you wish to see it. regards john
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 19-03-17, 09:46 PM
Mike H's Avatar
Mike H Mike H is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,695
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bess55 View Post
What may be the salient point is that he particularly mentions that it is for SENIOR NCO's on the side cap not NCO'S - there is a difference. This may be important - it certainly would be in some other regiments. Now I am only going on Mr Lambert notes and have no way of attaching provenance to his research, however his reputation should lend some credibility.

The whole reason for this post is to attempt to expand this single strand information as its the only mention I have ever had of this item as a recognised badge at all, let alone cap badge in its own right.

It may be a one off run, for a limited use but clearly it is not striking a cord with anyone. So he may well have been mistaken or misinformed - who knows.

Many thanks chaps.

Bess
When we discussed it Bess ,you mentioned Mr Lambert had seen the example owned by Rick Butterfield,so yours isnt the only example. As you said ,replacing lugs with a slider is a deliberate act thats happened at least twice.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 09:51 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.