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  #1  
Old 10-09-10, 12:01 AM
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hagwalther hagwalther is offline
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Default Buckinghamshire Badges

Hi Guys,

I may have sown the seeds of confusion in relation to Buckinghamshire area TA units A/A badges.

See an earlier thread as shown here:

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...uckinghamshire

For the "Buckinghamshire Hussars".

I believe that this unit during the A/A era was known as:

"P" (Buckinghamshire Hussars Yeomanry) Battery, 299th (Royal Buckinghamshire Yeomanry) Field Regiment, Royal Artillery (TA)
Also known as:
299th (Royal Buckinghamshire Yeomanry) Field Regiment, Royal Artillery (TA)

There appear to be two badges in existence covering this unit - see images.

One has the scroll "THE BUCKINGHAMSHIRE REGIMENT" and the other has a dual scroll of 'YEOMANRY OF BUCKS STRIKE HOME' and 'ROYAL BUCKS HUSSARS'.

Here is the LoC designation for the Tudor Crowned "Buckinghamshire Hussars" from 1st Sept 1952.

INTRODUCTION. A pattern (No. 15066) has been sealed to govern future manufacture and is hereby introduced.
The design in white metal or anodised aluminium is a circle surmounted by a crown, within the circle, a swan.
Around the circle is the wording "Yeoman of Bucks" "Strike Home" and at the base there is a scroll inscribed "Royal Bucks Hussars".

And for the St. Edward Crown from 19th Sept 1958.

NEW PATTERN. A pattern (No. 17509) has been sealed to govern future manufacture.
The new pattern differs from the old (No. 15066) (CB 3209, C 5160) in that it incorporates the St. Edward Crown.


While the St. Edward badge is very rare indeed I have no evidence that the Tudor Crowned badge was ever manufactured.

I also have no evidence whatsoever of the one scroll "THE BUCKINGHAMSHIRE REGIMENT" badge being officially authorised for issue.

I therefore believe that the St. Edwards Crown dual scroll badge is the only official item for the "Buckinghamshire Hussars" and all others are unofficial commissions some even being made post 1991.


With regard to the "Black Buckinghamshire" badge.

I understand that this unit was known during the A/A era as the:

Buckinghamshire Regiment Royal Artillery (Territorials).

From my notes based on official correspondence held at the National Archives, Kew I have:

This Regiment was formed in 1967 by parts of 299 and Ox & Bucks LI, disbanded in 1969 as part of the TAVR III disbandment program.

Officially only the dies and initial die samples of the following badges were manufactured before the contract to supply was cancelled.


Any genuine samples would be in a raw aluminium state pre the anodising and colour dying process so would not be black.

As such, I believe all "Black Buckinghamshire" badges to be unofficial commissions.

With the possible use by Cadets - the Cadet procurement process was quite simple usually agreed over a gin and tonic and an official letter from the Cadet unit commander to the War Office.

During the A/A era at least, Cadet units were for the main affiliated to their local TA battallion and wore the badge of that battalion if they did not have their own example.

To conclude that this badge was worn by cadets one would need evidence that a TA unit wore the "Black Buckinghamshire" badge be it in non A/A material with the Cadets then commissioning their own example in A/A.

I hope this helps sort things out a bit and prevents collectors parting with lots of money on dubious products.

I'll be away over the weekend to answer queries re: the above and as per usual if anyone is thinking of buying an expensive badge and is unsure re: pedigree or authenticity then contact me on my GMail email address:

hagwalther at gmail dot com

Not wishing to labour the point but paying 145 quid as per eBay a few months ago for a "Black Buckinghamshire" A/A badge can only be describe as 'optimistic'...

Regards

Chris
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Royal Bucks Hussars Reverse.jpg (42.3 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg Royal Bucks Hussars Obverse.jpg (53.3 KB, 96 views)
File Type: jpg Buckinghamshire Regt Obverse.jpg (75.7 KB, 116 views)
File Type: jpg Buckinghamshire Regt Reverse.jpg (56.8 KB, 90 views)
File Type: jpg Buckinghamshire Battn Obverse.jpg (47.0 KB, 122 views)
File Type: jpg Buckinghamshire Battn Reverse.jpg (43.2 KB, 76 views)
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  #2  
Old 10-09-10, 07:49 AM
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Chris,

One minor point the Black Bucks Battalion design was in use from 1908 in metal and was not a 1967 creation. Your refernece to the 1967 badge refers to the silver yeo design with Bucks regt on the scroll. The black crosss was not the design refered to as the 1967 amlgamated unit as it was already in use prior to 1945 (albeit with a k/c). However the Q/C version is indeed only found with a Gaunt Bham stamp. This is indeed probably totally spurious as the cross design of badge went out of use in the 1940s. This is the Bucks regtl lineage.

1939.03.31 1st Buckinghamshire Battalion, The Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry redesignated on formation of 2nd Battalion
1946.08.17 suspended animation
1947.01.01 645 Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RA (Bucks) (T.A.)
reconstituted in T.A. with HQ at Slough, concurrently amalgamated with 2nd Battalion and converted to artillery
1955.03.10 R (Buckinghamshire) Battery, 431 Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RA
S (Buckinghamshire) Battery,
[amalgamated with 480 (Berkshire) HAA Regt RA and 536 (M) LAA/SL Regt (Surrey) RA]
1961.05.01 S (Buckinghamshire Rifles) Battery, 299th (Royal Buckinghamshire Yeomanry, Queen's Own Oxfordshire Hussars, and Berkshire) Field Regiment, RA
[reduced to one battery, and amalgamated with 299th (Royal Buckinghamshire Yeomanry, Berkshire Yeomanry, and Queen's Own Oxfordshire Hussars) Field Regiment, RA]
1967.04.01 Q Battery (The Buckinghamshire Rifles), The Buckinghamshire Regiment, RA (Territorials)
reorganised in TAVR III at Bletchley
1969.01.01 D Company, 4th (V) Battalion, The Royal Green Jackets
at Aylesbury, formed from its P Bty as The Buckinghamshire Regt RA reduced to cadre
1986.12.01 D Company
at Aylesbury
} 5th (V) Battalion,
The Royal Green Jackets


So there are potentialy 4 a/a badges here - the Yeomany k/c, yeomanry Q/C, Bucks Bn and Bucks regt in black. I have never seen examples of the first 2 (your Q/c yeo is the only one that I have seen) and the second 2 are quite likely unofficial commissions.

Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 10-09-10 at 08:10 AM.
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  #3  
Old 10-09-10, 03:32 PM
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Were the first and second badges in A/A white metal ever worn?
Matti
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  #4  
Old 10-09-10, 05:46 PM
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Ive never heard of a kc yeomanry,the others are certainly out there.The Btn is a rare one,and the qc scrolled.The regt badge is reasonably common.

Last edited by Alan O; 21-02-19 at 12:22 PM.
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  #5  
Old 12-09-10, 03:56 AM
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Hi Guys,

Thanks for the input.

Alan - can you confirm that your entry:

1967.04.01 Q Battery (The Buckinghamshire Rifles), The Buckinghamshire Regiment, RA (Territorials)

relates to 'THE BUCKINGHAMSHIRE REGIMENT" badge as shown as the first two silver images in this thread and not the black badge example?

If you can then this throws the black badge item even further down the unofficial commission list and I won't even both looking for it to complete a set of unofficial commissioned cancelled TAVRIII unit badges.

Alan, can you also give a reference for the linage supplied - I would like to check with a secondary source that I have been using.

To confirm my stance at the moment - What I'm saying here is that if anyone is thinking of purchasing "Buckinghamshire" anodised aluminium cap badges then the only one that I believe was officially authorised for issue AND manufactured was the St. Edwards Crown "ROYAL BUCKS HUSSARS" one as shown in the third and fourth images.

The St. Edwards Crown "ROYAL BUCKS HUSSARS" is a very rare badge and the one shown was picked up in Australia with a couple of other Yeomanry badges from the same era. All though exhibit correct manufacturing traits that I would expect to find from the makers and the maker markings reconcile with known pattern card markings for the era of unit exhitence.

I can't comment on any other non A/A items so I'm afraid that have to leave other metal types out of the running.

Regards

Chris
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  #6  
Old 12-09-10, 06:22 AM
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Chris,

Having checked in K&K Vol 2 and Gaylor they contradict each other as to which was the 1967 badge! I will need to go and see what Maj Edwards states for a third opinion as to when the w/m Regt badge came in as Gaylor says '67 where as K&K say 1961. Logically Gaylor is right as it ties in with the rest of the TAVR reforms where county amalgamations of TA Inf, RA, RAC and Yeomanry units all had new (but similiar) designs.

The regtl lineages are all on the UK MOD's website. Most are in th Signals Yeomanry regts now.

Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 12-09-10 at 09:44 AM.
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  #7  
Old 13-09-10, 07:32 PM
ukbrits ukbrits is offline
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Hi Guys,
Looking through a wiki webpage for the Royal Green Jackets I noticed that the
5th (V) Bn of the Royal Green Jackets was formed from the 4th Bn of the Ox & Bucks L.I (T.A) and the Bucks Bn of the Ox & Bucks L.I. I believe this amalgamation happened in 1969.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Green_Jackets

So,the regiments title certainly lived on after the war. Wether there were any official badges made at Regimental or Battery level I don't know.
Looking through my collection I do have a black metal and an anodised Q.C Bucks Bn badge.
Kipling & King Vol2 also shows a black Q.C cap badge to the Bucks Bn (2391 page167 refers).Both of these badges were made by J.R Gaunt B'ham. I have seen a few of these anodised Bucks Bn badges and they have all had that "used" look about them on the badges high points & slider.

There is also good info on the silver anodised Buckinghamshire Regiment badge on page 142 also from K&K.
Hope this helps
Best Regards
UKbrits

Last edited by ukbrits; 13-09-10 at 07:33 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #8  
Old 13-09-10, 07:38 PM
ukbrits ukbrits is offline
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Hi Guys,
Looking through a wiki webpage for the Royal Green Jackets I noticed that the
5th (V) Bn of the Royal Green Jackets was formed from the 4th Bn of the Ox & Bucks L.I (T.A) and the Bucks Bn of the Ox & Bucks L.I. I believe this amalgamation happened in 1969.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Green_Jackets

So,the regiments title certainly lived on after the war. Wether there were any official badges made at Regimental, Company or Battery level I don't know.
Looking through my collection I do have a black metal and an anodised Q.C Bucks Bn badge.
Kipling & King Vol2 also shows a black Q.C cap badge to the Bucks Bn (2391 page167 refers).Both of these badges were made by J.R Gaunt B'ham. I have seen a few of these anodised Bucks Bn and they have all had that "used" look about them on the badges high points & slider.

There is also good info on the silver anodised Buckinghamshire Regiment badge on page 142 also from K&K.
Hope this helps
Best Regards
UKbrits

Last edited by ukbrits; 13-09-10 at 07:48 PM.
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  #9  
Old 01-11-10, 08:55 AM
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hi guys
heres my badge. it came with a bunch of cadet and otc items.
it is black but has had gilt outline applied. thats how it came?
made by gaunts
bc
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File Type: jpg DSCN9017.JPG (79.9 KB, 62 views)
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  #10  
Old 01-11-10, 08:31 PM
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Mike H Mike H is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badgecollector View Post
hi guys
heres my badge. it came with a bunch of cadet and otc items.
it is black but has had gilt outline applied. thats how it came?
made by gaunts
bc
Bizarre
Have a clue on that
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  #11  
Old 25-09-11, 11:01 PM
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Hi,

I can confirm that the Black a/a Buckinghamshire Battalion badge was also worn by the Buckinghamshire Cadet Battalion (ACF) up to the late 1970's when they adopted the RGJ Badge.

The "used" look of the high points on some badges would probably be down to the practice of Officers and SNCO's who would scrape the paint off of the high points to show a "silver" finish a fairly common rifleman practice and one I have done myself on my "combat" RGJ badge many years ago.

The Bucks ACF wore the green "rifle" beret and wore the badge in its a/a form whereas I believe that the Schools wore the cloth badge on a blue beret.


Regards

Steve
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  #12  
Old 26-09-11, 07:23 PM
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hagwalther hagwalther is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbobs View Post
Hi,

I can confirm that the Black a/a Buckinghamshire Battalion badge was also worn by the Buckinghamshire Cadet Battalion (ACF) up to the late 1970's when they adopted the RGJ Badge.

The "used" look of the high points on some badges would probably be down to the practice of Officers and SNCO's who would scrape the paint off of the high points to show a "silver" finish a fairly common rifleman practice and one I have done myself on my "combat" RGJ badge many years ago.

The Bucks ACF wore the green "rifle" beret and wore the badge in its a/a form whereas I believe that the Schools wore the cloth badge on a blue beret.


Regards

Steve
Hi Steve,

Welcome to the forum. Steve, I have been doing some work in A/A badges and would like a few more details on this one if possible.

Were you a member of the Bucks ACF that wore the Buckinghamshire Battalion A/A cap badge? Also, do you know when the badge was first worn? I see that you state that it was replaced in the late 1970's.

Many Thanks!!!

Chris
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  #13  
Old 27-09-11, 09:41 AM
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lightbobs lightbobs is offline
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Hi chris,

Yes I was a member of the unit in 1978 and wore the Buckinghamshire Battalion a/a badge. I still have three from that time all the Gaunt B'ham type. Two blackened and one with the high points showing.

I was not with them when they rebadged but they were certainly RGJ badged by 1981 when I was next associated with them via the TA.

If you give me a couple of days I can do some digging and hopefully come up with some definate dates.

I do not know when they adopted the Bucks Bn badge but I have seen photos from the 1950's and 60's of AIs wearing the OBLI Bugle beret badge and possibly the RBH badge.

According to a document I have compiled by the Bucks TAFA the Bucks Cadet Battalion was affiliated to the RGJ in 1967.

Regards

Steve
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