"Grenade Fired Proper"

[grenadierguardsman]

Yes indeed, the Barrack room Instructor, a Lcpl at the time, i was a Junior Leader.

[grumpy]

changing the subject, I need a three-badge good conduct set for the Home Service Tunic, to complete my set: where on earth do I find one?

[grenadierguardsman]

There use to be a little antique shop on far side of Putney Bridge, opposite side of the Town centre. It sold loads of Home Service Clothing and bits and pieces. Other than that i sorry but i don't know.

[grumpy]

Thank you very much.

[grumpy]

Had a look for heraldic description of the various Colours: I have complete descriptions and ills. of all the company colours, but still looking for the grenade.

I have mislaid my very very rare book by McNair French
[mid 1800s] which will, when I find it, surely do the biz.

[grenadierguardsman]

Nice one, let us know what you find.
Cheers Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Can any one tell me when the "Grenade Fired Proper" cap badge was first used or issued please.

If you mean the brass badge that you yourself wore then the answer is 1898 when the cap badges as we know them now first came into use. If however, you mean the Grenade Fired Proper as a British Army insignia, then the following shows its origins.

The wide Tricorne/Bicorne hats with broad brims characteristic of infantry during the late 17th century were discarded by grenadiers and replaced with caps. This was originally to allow the grenadier to sling his musket over his back with greater ease while throwing grenades (initially, only these troops were provided with slings). By 1700, grenadiers in the English and other armies had adopted a cap in the shape of a bishop's mitre, usually decorated with the regimental insignia in embroidered cloth on the front and the grenade on the (crown) back. In addition to the mitre head dress, grenadiers of the British Army were distinguished by flaming grenade insignia on belt-plates, pouches, coat-tails and collars plus shoulder wings. In spite of its early introduction, orders regulating the appearance of the Mitre caps were not issued until 1743. The design established in 1743 remained virtually the same until 1768 when it evolved into the first model of the bearskin cap.

Description of the Mitre cap 1743-1763.

The cap's front had a shaped panel of material that was like the boards of a book. This panel was covered with a heavily embroidered piece of wool in the colour of the particular regiment. In 1743 it was ordered that King GeorgeII's royal cypher of a G.R.(GeorgisRex translated King George) surmounted by a crown be embroidered on the front. A small red flap, embroidered with "NEC ASPERA TERRENT" (difficulties daunt us not) and the running horse of Hanover,was attached to the front panel.

The rear of the Mitre cap had a piece of red wool stitched to the edge of the stiffened front. To keep the rear smooth and round two pieces of cane were sewn to the red fabric on the inside, The stitches for the cane that showed on the exterior were then covered by pieces of white woolen tape. The rear bottom band was made of wool of the regiment's colour and had embroidered on it, along with other ornamentation, the numbers of the regiment and a grenade. Completing the cap was an interior lining of unbleached linen, regimental lace along the bottom edge, and a woolen tuft at the top of the cap.

Prior to 1768 regiments wore sometimes wildly embellished dress distinctions according to the wishes of their Colonels. This led to unsatisfactory variations so in that year the first Army wide dress regulations were issued and titled the Royal Clothing Warrant.

The Royal Clothing Warrant, 1768

Grenadiers' Caps.

The caps of the grenadiers to be of black bear-skin. On the front, the King's crest, of silver plated metal, on a black ground, with the motto, "Nec aspera terrent." A grenade on the back part, with the number of the regiment,on it.’’

1802 Clothing Regulations.

The Caps of the Grenadiers to be of Black Bear Skin. On the Front, the King’s Crest in brass on a Black Ground with the Motto “Nec aspera
terrent.” A Grenade on the Back part, with the number of the Regiment on it. The Royal Regiments and the six old Corps [that is senior regiments within the infantry] are to have the Crest and Grenade, and also the other particulars specified hereafter. The Badges of the Regts. are to be White and set near the Top of the Back part of the Cap. The Height of the Cap (without the Bear Skin which reaches beyond the Top) to be Twelve Inches.)

Conclusion. It would seem then that the grenade was first worn as a regulated badge for grenadiers from 1743 on the mitre cap, but that the first authorised and published Army wide use of the grenade insignia by all British Army Grenadiers was in 1768, at the same time as bearskin caps came into use.

N.B. It's interesting to note that in terms of head dress the grenade began its life as possibly the first 'back badge' worn by the British Army.

[grumpy]

Thank you for that.

I have found my McNair, 1861, profusely illustrated and with full heraldic descriptions of all the Grenadier Colours at that time.

Almost all with black/grey grenade and realistic flames BUT no description of the grenade AT ALL ....... I must consult someone who knows more about heraldry to ask why grenade not described.

Also nothing in the otherwise marvellous "British Grenadiers".

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grumpy

Thank you for that.

I have found my McNair, 1861, profusely illustrated and with full heraldic descriptions of all the Grenadier Colours at that time.

Almost all with black/grey grenade and realistic flames BUT no description of the grenade AT ALL ....... I must consult someone who knows more about heraldry to ask why grenade not described.

Also nothing in the otherwise marvellous "British Grenadiers".

I think you will find the grenade both as weapon and insignia pre-dates the Grenadier Guards by a significant margin, as I have tried to explain, and the insignia was really just part and parcel of marking the troops appearance as specialised. It seems that the word itself originated in Spain and that the spread of the grenadier influence ran from Spain and Italy, then France and into Britain and Russia by 1700, via the War of Spanish Succession. John Churchill's British Army had no grenadiers, but his adversaries did. Therefore any influence of heraldry would probably be later and merely state what colours the grenade should be on regalia and regimental colours once the plain white embroidery on caps became more garishly embellished, perhaps as part of the dandified Regency period. Flank companies were ceased after the Crimean War thus leaving Fusiliers and Grenadier Guards to together carry on most (but not all) of the dress distinctions associated with grenadiers.

[grumpy]

Thank you Toby .... we appear to be straying: I was only trying to pin down an official usage of "Grenade Fired Proper" anywhere! But anywhere!!
Or is it just something that has crept in as Grenadier folklore [as badge collectors use it happily for the Gilding Metal cap badge etc, I am not trying to knock it ....... after all, as an example, most Trade badges as known to collectors are not Trade badges at all.

[grenadierguardsman]

Thanks Toby, and Grumpy. Some cracking information here thanks.
But with reference to the Cap Badge of the Grenadier Guards being issued in 1898, i`m not sure about that. I have the Regiment Magazine from the Military Heritage Collection Oct/Nov issue 1994. There are photo`s of the Grenadier Guards wearing the Grenade Cap Badge.
Photo`s on page`s
31 dated 1871
46 dated 1863,1870 and 1890
47 dated 1884-5
The Editor is a Stuart Asquith.
Cheers Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Thanks Toby, and Grumpy. Some cracking information here thanks.
But with reference to the Cap Badge of the Grenadier Guards being issued in 1898, i`m not sure about that. I have the Regiment Magazine from the Military Heritage Collection Oct/Nov issue 1994. There are photo`s of the Grenadier Guards wearing the Grenade Cap Badge.
Photo`s on page`s
31 dated 1871
46 dated 1863,1870 and 1890
47 dated 1884-5
The Editor is a Stuart Asquith.
Cheers Andy

That's very interesting Andy and I suspect that the Guards museum will have the final word on this. My understanding has been that cap badges in their current guise (design and dimensions) were introduced in 1898, initially with loop and cotter pin fitting and later with vertical shanks (sliders), excepting Foot Guards, who for a long time have for the most part retained loops. Badges prior to 1898 no doubt took grenade form but, as they were worn in various types of head dress, dimensions and method of fitment were often different. What is clear is that the Grenadier Guards have retained the simplicity of their plain, but distinctive and immediately recognisable grenade for a significant period of time. I do not have access to my Kipling and Kings reference book, but perhaps someone who does can advise us?

[grenadierguardsman]

Thanks Toby, i`ll get in touch with the Regiment.

[grenadierguardsman]

I`ve been in touch with the Guards Museum, unfortunately they could`nt provide any info on when the Grenade Fired Proper as a Cap Badge was first used.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

I`ve been in touch with the Guards Museum, unfortunately they could`nt provide any info on when the Grenade Fired Proper as a Cap Badge was first used.

That's a very poor response from them as the info must certainly exist deep in the bowels of their records. I had a similar response from my own regimental museum on another cap badge matter and the attitude one gets can be very frustrating. Have you had the chance to look in a Kipling and Kings book on badges? I don't have access to mine and I am sure there will be something in there on Guards badges. Another source would be the books at this excellent specialised shop which re-publishes old research papers and manuals:
http://www.military-naval-history.co...es_colours.htm

I believe the key issue will be head dress, as each change seemed to bring a new style of badge. We know what was worn on the Brodrick from 1902 and the Field Service Cap before that (i.e. from 1898). However, what did the Guards wear in undress when the line regiments wore the glengarry from 1868 on? Before that (i.e. Crimea onwards) was the 'Kilmarnock' (a woolen bonnet with a toorie still worn by Gurkha bands) and badge based on the number of the regiment (pre-1881) but the Guards did not use a number and at that stage always had a badge, so for the Grenadiers it is a matter of whether they were wearing a grenade, or their other badge, the garter with motto enclosing the sovereign's cypher reversed. There was a long period (even after 1815) when all the Guards wore on their head dress a large star with some other device mounted centrally and it is when this changed that will be key. For example, in 1825 only a grenade collar badge was used to mark the Grenadiers from the other 2 regiments.

From 1817 to 1835 officers bearskin front plates were copper gilt and the background of the plate had a scaled surface. The other ranks had a similar design in brass with a plain smooth background. The Hanoverian royal arms is combined with the Prince of Wales feathers and coronet as the Grenadier Guards bearskin cap was introduced for the whole regiment during the Regency. No sign of a grenade, but again, what head dress was worn in undress over that period?