Sliders v Lugs on Inf cap badges

[John Mulcahy]

It is great stuff - but I do not think we can conclude just yet that the NP Forage cap (i.e. Brodrick) only had badges with loops

Attached below are scans from the RACD list of changes WO359/VOL 12 pages 120 & 121 + the insert between the two pages.

You will see it clearly instructs the introduction of a slider for the service dress headdress (slouch hat) and the FSH. It also instructs a slider for the NP forage cap - this is the Brodrick.

I have not come across anything to rescind this instruction.

Could the Brodricks presented with loops date from first introduction c. 1902 but before the badges with sliders were made, and stocks turned over?

John

I should add that "Universal Headdress" in the entry means the slouch hat

[John Mulcahy]

As an after-thought to the last post...

I would not be at all suprised if the supply of badges with sliders never caught up with the replacment of the Brodrick by the Universal Pattern forage cap (with the peak) in some units. Graham Stewart has pointed out many times that changes did not occur overnight, and he is right. The Army were fond of authorizing changes when "existing stocks are exhausted", you see it regularly in the register of changes.

As I understand it, the Brodrick first appeared in the Brigade of Guards in 1900 and, was authorized for Infantry in 1902. In the scans in my previous post you have in Jan 1903 the War Office saying; fit sliders to the FSC badge for use in the forage cap for infantry & cavalry. It is possible that the Brodrick had disappeared in 1906 before any badges with sliders hit some units.

I do however, see documented sealing evidence of sliders being fitted to some Infantry FSC Badges in 1903 - the Royal Irish Rifles is one and I assume this is to comply with the order to use them on the Brodrick.

Attached below is a photo the late Steve White gave me of his Royal Munster Fusiliers badges - variations of pattern 4642. I think the one with the long slider is probably in reaction to the order to have the FSC badge fitted with a slider for use on the Brodrick. I have written elsewhere on the forum that the Glengarry badge with slider was authorized for the Slouch cap and FSH for Fusilier regiments. (whether they ever wore them is another matter, viz. the comments and observations eleswhere on what the Northumberland and Lancashire Fusiliers did).

John

[chief_chum]

Hi John,

Fascinating stuff.

I'm sure that sliders were used on them too but I have seen quite a few of the caps and, so far, all have had lugged badges. I have a friend who owns a Royal Marine Broderick with its original white cover. I will ask him to have a look at the badge fixing as it is much more likely to be made later than the ones I have shown above so the sliders may have caught up as you originally suggested.

John Green's Norfolk Regiment Broderick was issued to him in 1906, the year they were withdrawn from most units, but I suspect that Battalions which held decent sized stocks of cap badges carried on using what they had.

This is certainly borne out in the Suffolk Regiment photographs I have of men with NP Forage Caps; many of them are wearing the Victorian two-turret cap badges on the peaks which were, in theory, obsolete by the time the new caps were introduced.

Taff

[John Mulcahy]

Taff

the photos you showed are wonderful and I have no doubt that what you assert, that some units had badges with loops in their Brodricks, is true.

The period 1902 - 1906 had enormous and, rapid changes in uniform for the British Army. I speculate that some units never saw an FSC badge with slider for their Brodricks before the Brodricks were gone.

By the way, there are pages of sealed pattern details for the back patches for the Brodrick in WO359, for example in May 1903 you can see the first patterns with worked loops to attach to the cap lodged in the pattern room.


John

[chief_chum]

John,

Thank you for your reply.

I agree that it was a period of great change; I am trying to work my way through the Suffolk Regiment insignia of that period and the water gets very muddy just after the South African War.

I have always had a soft spot for Brodericks and I would be interested to see the Sealed Pattern details. Thank you for the tip-off.

Best wishes,

Taff

[John Mulcahy]

PM sent

[davidwyke]

I'm not sure what I started here but it's a fascinating discussion, many thanks to everyone who has contributed.

Andy - thanks for the Guards reference, so now I know!

[chief_chum]

The spelling should be Brodrick, not Broderick.
The cap's unofficial title was named after St. John Brodrick, later ninth Viscount and first Earl of Midleton, Secretary of State for War, 1900 to 1903, and Secretary of State for India, 1903 to 1905.
Thanks to John for pointing out the error.
Best wishes,
Taff

[Peter Brydon]

And whose signature can often be found at the bottom of commission documents.

P.B.

[Charlie585]

At the risk of further digression from David's original topic but within the bounds of the discussion so far on this thread which has proven to be both interesting and informative.

I wonder if any member is able to shed light on the "Flash-to-Bang" time with regard to badge inception and production. I follow and agree with the often stated points concerning the use of old stocks when trying to determine when a particular badge be it looped or slidered actually came into use. What I would like if possible is to gain some idea of the time lapse between a new pattern of badge being agreed upon and its issue to the unit in question.

An example of this would be the badge of the Tower Hamlets Rifles (Yet again I hear, my apologies)!

It is commonly stated that this badge was worn between 1926 and 1947 when the THR were disbanded.

As many will know, the THR were formerly the 17th Londons Poplar and Stepney Rifles and I hope that it may be possible to feature the actual documentation of the process that lead to the change of designation for this unit, but in brief for the time being:

Authorisation for the change of designation from the 17th Bn The London Regt to The Tower Hamlets Rifles was finally approved late in 1926.


I accept that the process of designing the new badge for the unit may have been ongoing whilst the deliberations over the final title were underway but no decision could have been finalised until the latter process had been concluded.

I assume that the new design would then have to be approved at the same level as the name change.
This in reality like that of the name change could have been subject to revision during this process, thus prolonging the final result.
At the reaching of this stage I presume that sealed patterns would have to be produced and approved before final tooling of the working dies could be carried out and production capacity given over by the manufacturer from existing contracts to the production of the new badge.

In the case of the THR I would suppose that once production of the final design was underway that its issue would follow fairly swiftly in relative terms due to their low numbers, them being a Territorial unit? On the other hand of course there may have been a standardised first production run in terms of numbers across the board?
Those who have served will no doubt be familiar with the speed at which the army supply chain seems to work at times due to priority of need with regard to non combat equipment in general terms, another factor to consider!

It would be interesting though to have an idea of how long on average the process of getting a new badge on parade actually took, be it for the THR or any other unit.
It may seem like nit picking but the time lapse between the date of a particular badge's sealed pattern and the actual date that it was taken into use is I feel a worthy factor to consider should we wish to apply the same level of scrutiny and detail to dating a badges as we do to other areas of our collecting them.
It can be argued in many instances that there would never have been a clear cut definable date of issue due to the use of existing stocks or old die hards wishing to retain their established traditions by continuing to wear the unit's (old pattern) badge.
It may in the case of the example I have used be possible to uncover an approximate but fairly accurate date of issue thus giving us an answer, I hope so! Regardless of the THR's badge it would be in my opinion useful to have a general idea of the length of the process as detailed if the information can be pieced together from the knowledge held by any that have studied this matter to any depth.

Regards.

Ry

[KLR]

I looked up the WO information concerning sliders on Guards badges for Andy - but I can't remember what they were at the moment ! Do you still have it Andy ? - or I'll try and find it later.

I'll get back on long sliders and the Brodrick later - incidentally there's a very good article on them here
Cox, BW, and Prevezer, M, 1982 ‘The Brodrick cap’, Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research, 60, 213–25

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by KLR

I looked up the WO information concerning sliders on Guards badges for Andy - but I can't remember what they were at the moment ! Do you still have it Andy ? - or I'll try and find it later.

I'll get back on long sliders and the Brodrick later - incidentally there's a very good article on them here
Cox, BW, and Prevezer, M, 1982 ‘The Brodrick cap’, Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research, 60, 213–25

Julian,
I've got it somewhere, but I'm away at the moment?

Andy

[2747andy]

Ry,
I'm not sure if I've picked up 100% on your point, however what I'm pretty sure about is that the change of fittings (long slider, standard slider or lugs) would only be a guide to when the badge was produced! I feel that the lugged badges shown fitted to the Brodricks, have a simple enough explanation! Although the fittings to the rear of the badges may have been revised, badges already in use, would IMO stayed in use and on the introduction of new forms of headdress, serving soldiers would just take their old badge and fit it to their new hat? Lugged badges in stock would be used up and although sliders appear to have been introduced c.1903, probably the first soldiers to fit long slidered badges to the Brodrick would have been recruits? Old soldiers get pretty attached to badges, having to polish them each day! To disgard their "Pride and Joy" just because the "Thingy" on the back was altered, would not of happened (IMO) in many cases! Even on the change of crown or cypher, it would take quite a while, possibly many years for a complete change over to the "New" badge or fitting?



Andy

[Alan O]

I would agree with Andy. The dates would mark the time that new badges were authorised to be made with sliders. There would inevitably be a time lag as sealed patterns were amended, existing stocks used up and badges in use finally replaced. As with the change of crowns in the late 50s and 60s, this would have taken many years.

Also as Julian as pointed out elsewhere badges were authorised for manufacture with lugs up to 1914 for wear by units in India.

Alan

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

It is great stuff - but I do not think we can conclude just yet that the NP Forage cap (i.e. Brodrick) only had badges with loops

Attached below are scans from the RACD list of changes WO359/VOL 12 pages 120 & 121 + the insert between the two pages.

You will see it clearly instructs the introduction of a slider for the service dress headdress (slouch hat) and the FSH. It also instructs a slider for the NP forage cap - this is the Brodrick.

I have not come across anything to rescind this instruction.

Could the Brodricks presented with loops date from first introduction c. 1902 but before the badges with sliders were made, and stocks turned over?

John

I should add that "Universal Headdress" in the entry means the slouch hat

I take it by slouch hat you mean the headdress described in Army Order 10 of 1902 which introduced Service Dress? And also that by slouch hat you mean the "hat of thick felt with wide brim" of those Orders?

If so, I don't understand your universal = slouch = service dress headdress equation.

This order specifically states that the felt was to be worn "at stations abroad only" and goes on to say that, at Home, the headdress to be worn with SD was "forage, field or glengarry".
The appendix to those orders lists the following headdress for issue: caps comforter, field [folding], forage [NP = new pattern = Brodrick] and glengarry.

I am well aware that the felt was worn in the field at Home despite the above, but I cannot understand it being referred to officially as universal when Orders make it clear that it was intended to be far from universal. Are you sure you are reading this correctly?

Is it possible to support your assertion with a reference? An AO or ACI of, say 1903 would do the trick nicely, and would clear up the puzzle of so many photos of soldiers at Home wearing a non-issue headdress!

Never mind the sliders, what about the hat!