British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > Other Commonwealth Military Insignia > Indian Badges

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-01-20, 02:53 PM
keflin2612's Avatar
keflin2612 keflin2612 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 269
Default 15th loodianah Sikhs Pagri Badge "Date"

Hi my fellow badgers,
Picked this pagri badge up the other week, I thought it going to be dated to around 1900 but when it arrived and I'd actually looked at it in the flesh, I think it seems to be older than I first thought. Could someone with a bit more knowledge than me tell me what sort of date it could actually be please.
Cheers.

Kev.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg D.jpg (84.8 KB, 32 views)
File Type: jpg C.jpg (87.6 KB, 45 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-01-20, 02:41 PM
gurkharifles's Avatar
gurkharifles gurkharifles is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,019
Default

Hi Kev

Your badge is actually illustrated in Ashok Nath's Sowars and Sepoys and the book depicts the badges worn in WW1. It's also shown in Cox. The fact that it has a Victorian crown would not in itself preclude it being worn in WW1 - but you might also be spot on in that it might be earlier. Tim
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-01-20, 04:27 PM
keflin2612's Avatar
keflin2612 keflin2612 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 269
Default

Thanks Tim for the info, I know they were also known as the 15th Ludhiana Sikhs, but I don't know when they changed from the loodianah Sikhs to the Ludhiana Sikhs and if the name was changed on the badges.

Kev.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-01-20, 05:27 PM
gurkharifles's Avatar
gurkharifles gurkharifles is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,019
Default

Hi Kev - both the Cox and Nath photos show your spelling of Loodianah - so I don't think your badge is an earlier version but the badge gives a "nod" to their origins in 1846, when they were known as the Regiment of Ludhiana (or the Loodiana Regiment. Tim
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-01-20, 06:06 PM
mike_vee's Avatar
mike_vee mike_vee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Uxbridge
Posts: 4,894
Default

Maybe contact "Sikhs In The Army" via their website :

http://www.sikhsinthearmy.co.uk/army-badges/4545978821

Link is to displays of badges including 15th Loodianah

Also found photo on another site of other spelling/badge.

http://indiaww1.in/militaria.aspx
__________________
British Legion/Royal British Legion , Poppy/Remembrance/Commemorative.

Poppy and British Legion Wanted

Last edited by mike_vee; 02-01-20 at 06:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-01-20, 09:55 AM
Wmr-RHB's Avatar
Wmr-RHB Wmr-RHB is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,369
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by keflin2612 View Post
Thanks Tim for the info, I know they were also known as the 15th Ludhiana Sikhs, but I don't know when they changed from the loodianah Sikhs to the Ludhiana Sikhs and if the name was changed on the badges.

Kev.
I was reading this with some misunderstanding because I have never heard of Ioodiana. I thought you mistyped a lowercase "l" instead of and uppercase "L" in your thread title.

Do I now understand that you read the first character on the scroll of your very fine picture if the beautiful badge as "I"? I read it as a clearly "L".

BTW, the different spellings of the same pronunciation Loodhiana/Ludhiana. I have no idea when the designation and/or scrolls where adapted to the then usual spelling. But I have seen pictures of a badge with a scroll reading Ludhiana. The badge is a bit different, it is has a (smaller) Quoit with XV within and the scroll attached below and a KC above.
__________________
Henk

Interested in the lineage of the unit your badge represents?
Try: Regimental lineages

Last edited by Wmr-RHB; 03-01-20 at 11:18 AM. Reason: mistuped XIV for XV
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-01-20, 11:11 AM
mike_vee's Avatar
mike_vee mike_vee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Uxbridge
Posts: 4,894
Default

Chronology
1846 formed as Regiment of Ludhiana
1861 became 15th Bengal Native Infantry
1864 became 15th (Ludhiana) Regiment of Bengal Native Infantry
1885 became 15th Regiment of Bengal Native Infantry (Ludhiana Sikhs)
1901 became 15th (Ludhiana) Sikh Infantry
1903 became 15th Ludhiana Sikhs
1922 became 2nd Bn/11th Sikh Regiment
1947 allocated to India on Partition

Corresponding items on Sikh website
1846-1864 15th Loodianah Regiment belt buckle/clasp.
1885-1922 15th Loodianah Sikhs Officers Pagri Badge (silver)


Interestingly ww1cemetaries shows headstones featuring both spellings and different badges.

https://www.ww1cemeteries.com/r-b-indian-regiments.html
Attached Images
File Type: jpg xv-royal-ludhiana-sikhs_orig.jpg (75.8 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg 15th-sikhs_orig.jpg (82.8 KB, 5 views)
__________________
British Legion/Royal British Legion , Poppy/Remembrance/Commemorative.

Poppy and British Legion Wanted
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-01-20, 11:26 AM
Wmr-RHB's Avatar
Wmr-RHB Wmr-RHB is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,369
Default

The second headstone is very strange, because the regiment never was "Royal".

In my opinion the word "Native" should be dropped from the 1885 designation in the list given above. In 1885 the word "Native" was dropped from all the designations as thought to be improprer

This is a badge picture I have (as described earlier in this thread):
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg inf015.jpeg (37.2 KB, 8 views)
__________________
Henk

Interested in the lineage of the unit your badge represents?
Try: Regimental lineages
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-01-20, 10:51 AM
Piffer Piffer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 141
Default 15Th Sikhs

[QUOTE=keflin2612;496108]Hi my fellow badgers,
Picked this pagri badge up the other week, I thought it going to be dated to around 1900 but when it arrived and I'd actually looked at it in the flesh, I think it seems to be older than I first thought. Could someone with a bit more knowledge than me tell me what sort of date it could actually be please.
Cheers.

HI Keflin, Sorry to say this, but the badge does not look right or correct , it is most likely a copy. The examples I have seen of this badge is that they were die struck and the fittings at the back are different. I took the liberty of sending these images to an expert who is not a member of this forum and he has also confirmed that it is not an authentic badge. Piffer
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-01-20, 12:41 PM
keflin2612's Avatar
keflin2612 keflin2612 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 269
Default

Who's your "expert"
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-01-20, 02:16 PM
Khyber Khyber is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 668
Default

Hi Piffer,
Yes the badge is a cast badge and the usual ones I've seen are die struck British made. As i told Kev, the reverse does not look great and it's been probably cast locally in India. But might be authentic in the sense that it might be used by other ranks as opposed to the silver ones worn by officers. I suppose you asked Ashok? I thought of sending him a pic but i bother him every other day so thought i would avoid
Problem with Indian badges now is there are a lot of cast copies so becoming a minefield. And some copies are extremely well made. The obverse of this badge is pretty decent though, i would say.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-01-20, 02:40 PM
keflin2612's Avatar
keflin2612 keflin2612 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 269
Default

I'm sorry, but I have the badge in my possession I've looked at it, held it, looked at and pulled the very old and very loose pin and I think it's naivety and probable fact that it was made in India, makes me think it's right.

Kev.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-01-20, 04:22 PM
Piffer Piffer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 141
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khyber View Post
Hi Piffer,
Yes the badge is a cast badge and the usual ones I've seen are die struck British made. As i told Kev, the reverse does not look great and it's been probably cast locally in India. But might be authentic in the sense that it might be used by other ranks as opposed to the silver ones worn by officers. I suppose you asked Ashok? I thought of sending him a pic but i bother him every other day so thought i would avoid
Problem with Indian badges now is there are a lot of cast copies so becoming a minefield. And some copies are extremely well made. The obverse of this badge is pretty decent though, i would say.
Hi Khyber and Kev,
That it's cast and most likely locally made from an original die struck badge for use by other ranks is a possibility. According to Ashok Nath this type of badge was worn by BO's and Native officers and also by NCO'S and members of the regimental band on special occasions. Other ranks wore XV with a quoit as it's shown in Sowars and Sepoys as nr 345. For field service they had a plain blackened quoit shown as nr 347. Since his book was published in 2014, Ashok also mentioned that he had noted, although its not mentioned in his book, after having seen contemporary photographs of 15th Sikhs that a plain silver quoit was worn by BO's on their SD caps. Let me see if I can can request for some images obverse/reverse of authentic badge worn by the 15th Sikhs. Piffer
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-01-20, 04:48 PM
keflin2612's Avatar
keflin2612 keflin2612 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 269
Default

I'll be very interested to see what you find out Piffer, thanks for the help.

Kev
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-01-20, 11:41 AM
Piffer Piffer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 141
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by keflin2612 View Post
Hi my fellow badgers,
Picked this pagri badge up the other week, I thought it going to be dated to around 1900 but when it arrived and I'd actually looked at it in the flesh, I think it seems to be older than I first thought. Could someone with a bit more knowledge than me tell me what sort of date it could actually be please.
Cheers.

Kev.
Here are images front and back of an authentic 15th Sikhs pagri badge, for comparisons...sent to me by a friend with permission to upload it in this forum, hope this helps. Piffer
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 15th Sikhs badge org obsverse.jpg (86.0 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg 15 Sikhs obverse org.jpg (69.4 KB, 16 views)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 10:51 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.