Early sand cast AIF Imperial Camel Corps hat badge authenticity

[DeMarchi]

Hi there,

I paid a good sum of money for this badge but keep getting told it's possibly fake. I also keep getting told it's definitely real. I'm very confused and would like to gather further opinions on the badge. From what I've read the early ICC badges were sand cast, the later badges were die struck. My camel faces the other way compared to the die struck badges and is a pretty rough cast indicating sand cast. The lugs look shiny and rather new and there's no patina on the badge, though I do wonder if it has been cleaned? There are small amounts of rust present in some of the deeper areas of the cast. Could anyone assist me further with this?

[redman]

Provenance would help. Where and how you came to buy it?
Kind regards
Dan

[badgecollector]

hi
what size is it? collar or hat badge? if collar then maybe but if larger i definitely dont like it
at first glance im not a fan however as previously mentioned, any sandcast badge needs provenance.
even with provenance, im sure you would be happy but if you come to sell it then others may not.
this is the reason i dont collect sandcast badges. there is no gtee they are legit.
sorry to say all this
bc

[Jackhr]

Hi
yes as stated where did your badge come from , is it a collar or hat badge? have posted a picture of my hat badge and one in the AWM . Can you post better pictures as there are a couple of things I dont see .

Rob

[kingsley]

Have a look at the other threads we have had about the four different genuine varieties of Australian Camel Corps badges:
1.sand cast hat and collars facing to right;
2.die struck collar size, no crown, facing to left,
3.die struck collar, with crown, facing to left.
IMHO these were worn concurrently not consecutively. I can't imagine original Cameliers surrendering sand cast hat badges (the only hat badges made),in exchange for the others.
Without provenance there will always be doubts about the authenticity of highly cleaned ones such as those recently sold on Ebay. Perhaps a close comparison with the lugs of the originals would help. Would there be a microscopic size difference in modern copies?

[Milmed]

I know nothing about these Camel Corps badges or where they were cast.

If however they were cast in Egypt, then the lugs don't match with Egyptian sand cast items I usually come across. These are normally of a flat profile wire and made of copper. Your badge appears to have brass round profile lugs.

[kingsley]

I think the lugs would be the clue. I will take some photos of the lugs on mine when I can access them and post the photos. Idon't think it would be possible to clean an original oxidised badge back to fully plain briught brass, and I can't imagine why anyone would try that hard. Original brass ones would have to be straight out of the Cairo foundry, unlikely but not impossible, which brings us back to the need for provenance.

[Jackhr]

Originally Posted by Milmed

I know nothing about these Camel Corps badges or where they were cast.

If however they were cast in Egypt, then the lugs don't match with Egyptian sand cast items I usually come across. These are normally of a flat profile wire and made of copper. Your badge appears to have brass round profile lugs.

This is the description for the AWM badge that I have showed above. Plus one other badge they have .

Description
An unofficial cast brass Rising Sun badge with a standing camel, facing right, in the centre surmounted by an Imperial crown and a banner at the base embossed 'AUSTRALIAN COMMONWEALTH MILITARY FORCES'. A pair of attachment lugs are brazed on to the reverse.

Rob

[dumdum]

Hi

I have a fairly common AIF "rising sun" cast collar and slouch hat badge. The slouch hat badge has flat profile copper lugs, the collar "D" profile copper lugs.

Both badges show a "hollow backed" effect although I have seen solid backed badges too.