British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > Common Forums > It's a Mystery -Unknown Insignia for Identification

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 30-08-08, 02:02 PM
David Douglas
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Any ideas please etc.

To Jeff - The name 'Seaforth Highlanders' was first used in 1778 when the 78th Highlanders were re-numbered as the 72nd. It was abandoned in 1823 when the Duke of Albany applied his name to the 72nd and again resurrected in 1881 with the amalgamation of the 72nd and 78th. To say that the name Seaforths was not used until 1881 is, in consequence, incorrect. Regards. David
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 30-08-08, 04:33 PM
Peter Brydon's Avatar
Peter Brydon Peter Brydon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Chester
Posts: 10,357
Default

Perhaps the scan from I previously posted from "The Queens Own Highlanders- Seaforth and Cameron " by Angus Fairrie was too small for some people to see so I will repeat it
( page 244 ) -

" Both the 72nd and 78th Highlanders were raised by the McKenzie of Seaforth................. In the 72nd the stags head was used with the motto Caber Feidh........."

P.B.
__________________
Interested in all aspects of militaria/military history but especially insignia and history of non regular units with a Liverpool connection

Members welcome in my private Facebook group “The Kings Liverpool Regiment ( 1685-1958 )”
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 30-08-08, 07:46 PM
David Douglas
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Any ideas please etc.

PB - Of course I read your original posting but it is simply an author's unsubstantiated statement within a written work. This is my very point - there will be bus-loads of opinions on the matter but no factual evidence to substantiate. Now if someone wants to come up with a single item of uniform accoutrement linking this motto to the 72nd then I will gladly concede - and feel educated in the bargain. I find it hard to believe that a Regiment as large as the 72nd has no remaining artifacts showing the wearing of this motto. OR it never did wear this motto ! The latter is where I stand at present but no-one is too old to learn. Bring on the evidence - please - and let us close the matter. Regards. David
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 31-08-08, 07:20 AM
Jeff Mc William's Avatar
Jeff Mc William Jeff Mc William is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wakefield West Yorks
Posts: 1,061
Default

Hi David. Yes, of course you are quite right, and I apologise unreservedly for conveniently forgetting the Seaforth family origins of both the 72nd & 78th Foot. Mea Culpa.
However, as far as the identification of Ian's badge is concerned, I am unrepentant and would humbly submit that all the other evidence to which I refer (particularly the photos and the provenance of Col.Clarke's artifacts) makes a fairly conclusive case. I'm afraid I agree with PB ..what more do you want ? "..a single item of uniform accoutrement.." you have one ! Incidently, Col. Angus Fairrie, who wrote the book to which PB refers and whom you so curtly dismiss, was curator of the Queens Own Highlanders Museum for over 20 years. He is retired now, but I don't think you will get a more authoritative opinion than his on this subject.
Well, that's it from me for now, although like yourself, I shall be curious to learn what others have to say on this. My thanks to Ian for the weight details which I did not have previously. Best of luck to you all. Jeff

Last edited by Jeff Mc William; 31-08-08 at 09:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 31-08-08, 07:56 AM
David Douglas
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Any ideas please etc.

Forgive me for not putting this one to sleep just yet - is it being said that there are exhibits in the QOH Museum (formerly belonging to whoever) that bear the disputed motto on them ? I ask this because, in my many visits to the museum I can't recall such evidence. Doesn't anyone have a photograph to upload on this matter ? Regards - in anticipation. David
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-09-08, 08:38 PM
Jeff Mc William's Avatar
Jeff Mc William Jeff Mc William is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wakefield West Yorks
Posts: 1,061
Default

Lucas Colln.jpg David. OWZATT ?!!!

I think this is as near to the "Proof " you are seeking as you will find :

I have managed to "dig-out" this rather faded photo from my HY Usher archives. It is the badge from the Lucas collection which I have already described earlier. As you can see, the stag's head and the scroll are identical to Ian's item (including the Cabar Feidh motto), but with the addition of a lower-case f between the antlers, which is the cypher of Frederick Duke of York & Albany. Since the 72nd had used this cypher widely on its colours and accoutrements since 1823, then, together with the other information I have already supplied, I think this conclusively proves the identity of this badge. QED
PS. However, I don't think Ian's badge is incomplete, since I believe this attachment was discontinued after about 1873.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 02-09-08, 07:44 AM
David Douglas
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Any ideas etc.

Sorry Jeff - 'Not out'. You have illustrated a badge mounted on a board with no supporting label or whatever. It could be a Clan badge or indeed, anything. We know that the badge exists - Ian has illustrated it. What we do not know is WHAT IT IS. I have contacted the QOH Museum for any evidence and will come back when a reply is to hand. I have also contacted the Scottish United Services Institute and the National Army Museum re the same matter. Regards. David
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 02-09-08, 11:19 AM
Jeff Mc William's Avatar
Jeff Mc William Jeff Mc William is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wakefield West Yorks
Posts: 1,061
Default

David, you are incorrigible. Do you know of any other regiment or civilian organisation that uses the Duke of York & Albany's cypher ? Also, whilst we are on the subject ; you strongly implied in your posting #8 (dated 29th Aug) that the 72nd would have used the "Cuidich'n Righ (or Rhi) motto after 1825...but do you know of any badge or device of the 72nd which bears this motto ? I certainly don't ! Anyway, I approve of your checking with the regimental museums re these points, but I wonder, will you believe them if their conclusions disagree with yours ? I await to hear with interest. Regards Jeff
PS: I did NOT say that there were exhibits in the QOH Museum with the motto "Cabar Feidh"...in fact quite the opposite..see my first posting #7 dated 28th Aug

Last edited by Jeff Mc William; 02-09-08 at 11:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 02-09-08, 07:40 PM
David Douglas
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Any ideas etc.

Jeff - As to the post 1825 motto - check the 72nd Colours for the period and afterwards. You will find the motto there. Of course I will believe evidence produced by absolutely anyone if it is substantiated - museums included. My point is that this is a well researched topic - decades before this Forum began - and absolutely no evidence exists - anywhere - to substantiate the use of the disputed motto by any British regiment. I would dearly like to put this issue to bed with confirmation - but I doubt it will be forthcoming. Regards. David
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-09-08, 12:19 PM
Jeff Mc William's Avatar
Jeff Mc William Jeff Mc William is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wakefield West Yorks
Posts: 1,061
Default

72F Colours.jpg David. I am sorry mate..but you are quite simply wrong again !
Here are the Colours of the 72nd Foot c.1842-57 as depicted in Cannon. (click for a bigger image) Can you see the motto "Cuidich'n Rhi" ? No ! neither can I !
No doubt you will respond by saying that this is not an accurate representation, but this can be easily checked by consulting any Army List from 1825 to 1880. Look at the top of the page for the regiment concerned and you will see the details that can be found on the Colours.
By the way, you will notice that the F cypher for the Duke of York & Albany is prominently displayed here..an important point which I made in my last posting but on which you conveniently failed to comment.
I am just left wondering now, just what WILL convince you, but, as far as Ian and the rest are concerned, I hope I have said enough to prove my point. Regards. Jeff
PS: Since you are so adamant that "Cuidich'n Rhi" WAS carried on the Colours of the 72nd (prior to 1881) perhaps you would be kind enough to include an image on your next posting. I await such "proof" in anxious anticipation.

Last edited by Jeff Mc William; 03-09-08 at 01:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-09-08, 04:19 PM
David Douglas
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Any ideas etc.

Jeff - Parkyn says thus : re Cuidich'n Righ - 'the motto was on the Colours in 1794 but was not officially recognised until 1825. For many years the motto was spelt 'Rhi' and was amended to the correct spelling in 1869' The Duke of Albany's influence existed 1823-1827 after which the coronet and cypher are given as that of the late Duke of York (see 1827 Army List). I'm sorry, but Parkyn had access to records and collections long dispersed so I will stick with him. Just call be stubborn. Regards. David
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-09-08, 07:40 PM
4966Ian 4966Ian is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 489
Default

Hi there,
I am deeply impresed by your knowledge gents, it's one of the main reasons I love this forum.
In checking through my reference books on another subject I found this. It is a copy of a button from Ripley & Darmanin's book on Rifle Volunteers Buttons (1859-1908). It is Button nos. 266 (Page 31). Which is listed as 5th Corps, Ross-shire Rifle Volunteers. As you can see from the picture it has the motto "CABAR FEIDCH". (N.B. Button 265 which is the Ross-shire Rifle Volunteers has the Stags head with the more normal "CUIDICH 'N RHI" above it).
I am not sure whether this helps or confuses matters even more. But thought I would post it in case it helps jog anybodys memory.

Thanks again for all your efforts.

Regards

Ian
Attached Images
File Type: jpg CabarFeidch_button01.jpg (23.3 KB, 17 views)
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-09-08, 07:45 PM
David Douglas
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Any ideas etc.

Thank you Ian - Of course. the button is post 1859 and needs a bit more research - which I will do forthwith - before further comment upon it. Perhaps others will have views. Regards - and thank you again for the post. David
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 04-09-08, 08:01 AM
Jeff Mc William's Avatar
Jeff Mc William Jeff Mc William is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wakefield West Yorks
Posts: 1,061
Default

David. Lets get this straight. According to you Parkyn is the sole authoratitive source and a paragon of truth and virtue. The Official Army Lists, Cannon, Chichester & Burgess Short, Usher, Lucas, Fairrie, the NAM and the QOH Museum are all rubbish. Everyone has to provide "cast-iron" evidence, but you don't have to. All you need to do is quote Parkyn. I just cannot believe such a preposterous hypothesis. Parkyn who you have misinterpreted is referring to the 78th NOT the 72nd, but I see you still will not accept the evidence which is put before you. Take my advice : When you find yourself in a hole...stop digging !

Last edited by Jeff Mc William; 04-09-08 at 12:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04-09-08, 12:12 PM
David Douglas
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Any ideas etc.

Jeff - I do believe you have mis-read Parkyn on this one. There is early interface between the 72nd and the 78th. From 1823 neither the 72nd nor the 78th held the Seaforth name - it disappeared until resurrected in 1881. Even Parkyn states that Cabar Feidh was only a motto - no evidence of it being a badge. I do not hold Parkyn as the absolute bible but none of your references even suggest anything beyond what Parkyn has said - everything is supposition with no artifact in known existence to link stag and Cabar Feidh as a badge of either the 72nd or the 78th. You may well believe that it is but you produce nothing to show that it is so. You are asking me to prove a negative - I am asking you to prove a positive - only the latter can be substantive evidence. Is there an artifact of either the 72nd or the 78th showing stag and Cabar Feidh (with or without the Duke of Albany's cypher) in any museum, private collection or illustration ? If so then please put it forward - I can't put forward what I believe does NOT exist. I will not concede without hard evidence. Regards. David
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 02:39 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.