Eire buttons

[GTB]

I hope no one will jump on me for posting under a 'foreign' thread! Personally, I would welcome a guideline on this.

If the buttons pertained to Irish regiments of the old British Army, then that would be plain sailing. Having said that, I am personally comfortable with continuing a lineage unbroken say from Victorian straight through to the present. After all, it is a part of the country's history.

My queries concerning the scanned buttons:

3 examples of Irish Vols - (a) Brass, older pattern (b) light gm, washed (c) chrome. I think button (a) is an original IV specimen. It is British made, unlike the other two. When did the Irish Defence Forces cease using nomenclature of the Irish Volunteers and was there a transition period between the usage of these buttons? Who used the chrome version?

2 buttons depicting different design harps and in differing metals/colours. I believe one (if not both) may pertain to Irish Customs.

Comments welcome
GTB

[ebro]

The Irish Defense force still uses the Irish Volunteer buttons but most are now AA.
The Harp is used by many government departments including customs.
Eddie

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by GTB

I hope no one will jump on me for posting under a 'foreign' thread! Personally, I would welcome a guideline on this.

If the buttons pertained to Irish regiments of the old British Army, then that would be plain sailing. Having said that, I am personally comfortable with continuing a lineage unbroken say from Victorian straight through to the present. After all, it is a part of the country's history.

My queries concerning the scanned buttons:

3 examples of Irish Vols - (a) Brass, older pattern (b) light gm, washed (c) chrome. I think button (a) is an original IV specimen. It is British made, unlike the other two. When did the Irish Defence Forces cease using nomenclature of the Irish Volunteers and was there a transition period between the usage of these buttons? Who used the chrome version?


Comments welcome
GTB

Since 1922 the Irish Defence Forces used the design for the Irish Volunteer cap badge and buttons on their uniforms. There is no transition period - the button design with the letters I & V is still in use to this day.

To the best of my knowledge only British manufacturers have produced this type of button for the Irish Defence Forces. The design is common to all corps and services except The Naval Service, Air Corps and Chaplains.

http://www.military.ie/press-office/...rank-markings/

[Hussar100]

Those are certainly modern ROI badges in my opinion. They could be British yes, for example Connaught Rangers, but it's true that most Irish Regiments in the British Army would have used the stylized "Maid of Erin" harp, which I've also heard called the "Angel Harp" because of the body of a female angel at the front of it with the wings folded back across the top of the instrument.

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by GTB

Who used the chrome version?

2 buttons depicting different design harps and in differing metals/colours. I believe one (if not both) may pertain to Irish Customs.

Comments welcome
GTB

Should have added that the chrome version is likely a Volunteer Force (a 1930s Army reserve with quite distinctive uniforms) button of the 1930’s or (less likely) an Officers full dress button of one of the mounted corps dated 1935 – 1955. When I am back at my material I will follow up for you. The buttons without the IV are not military

[Hussar100]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

Should have added that the chrome version is likely a Volunteer Force (a 1930s Army reserve with quite distinctive uniforms) button of the 1930’s or (less likely) an Officers full dress button of one of the mounted corps dated 1935 – 1955. When I am back at my material I will follow up for you. The buttons without the IV are not military

Can you remember if the Blue Hussars wore this pattern or if they stuck with the "ball" type buttons of the 8th Hussars (their uniform, although a lighter blue, was supposed to be a copy of 8H).

[John Mulcahy]

GTB

The chromed button is almost certainly (IMO) from the volunteer uniform of 1934 - 1940

http://www.historyireland.com/20th-c...force-1934-46/

pm me your contact details and I will send you scans of uniform illustrations if you wish

The officer full dress of 1935-55 should in theory be silver/silvered and not chromed and worn by Cavalry and other "mounted " corps.

John

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by Hussar100

Can you remember if the Blue Hussars wore this pattern or if they stuck with the "ball" type buttons of the 8th Hussars (their uniform, although a lighter blue, was supposed to be a copy of 8H).

I am afraid I am not certain, from the line drawings I have buttons seem to be restricted to shoulder straps and the busby bag. If I recall rightly there is a uniform on display at the National Museum, Collins Bcks although I do not appear to have photographed it.

If no one comes back in the meantime, I know someone who should be able to answer this question and I will follow up over the coming days.

John

[GTB]

Hi John

Thanks for interest and info.
I am unable to effectively scan the back of the chrome button but if it helps, I have never come across this type of backmark before (prob locally done): what appears to be 'T & D' letters punched at equal distance around the backplate.
Will pm you
GTB

[Hussar100]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

I am afraid I am not certain, from the line drawings I have buttons seem to be restricted to shoulder straps and the busby bag. If I recall rightly there is a uniform on display at the National Museum, Collins Bcks although I do not appear to have photographed it.

If no one comes back in the meantime, I know someone who should be able to answer this question and I will follow up over the coming days.

John

That would be very kind of you. Please do ask the question on my behalf.

[connaught]

Pics from Collins Barracks, can't remember what exactly, Officers dress uniforms I think and the second one appears to be Blue hussars.

[Hussar100]

In the way that colour is show there and with that crossbelt I'd say the second uniform is Irish Hussars. The Blue Hussars uniform was Sapphire, not dark blue. It could just be the colouring of the image though.

[connaught]

not sure Hussar, but the pic was taken with a bad camera, but the uniform was in the Free State/national army section, did the Blue hussars wear the old 8th uniforms at any time?

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by Hussar100

In the way that colour is show there and with that crossbelt I'd say the second uniform is Irish Hussars. The Blue Hussars uniform was Sapphire, not dark blue. It could just be the colouring of the image though.

The photo is an other ranks uniform of The Mounted Escort 1932-1949 so-called 'Blue Hussars" . They did not wear 8th KRIH Hussars uniforms.

There are many differences in the uniform. The jackets are very different. The last full dress Hussar Jacket for the KRIH had six loops of cord braiding, note The Blue Hussars jacket has 5.

The scan on the left below is the Hussars officers jacket as shown in the 1911 DRs. O/R tunics were essentially the same in terms of the braiding except that they had yellow cord in place of the officers gold chain gimp.

Now note the O/R tunic of "The Blue Hussars " on the right (from Badges, Medals , Insignia of Oglaig na hEireann , The Irish Defence Forces) is very different. Note the major differences in the ends of the braiding with the British version having drops loops and one cap whereas the Irish version has no drops and no caps at the end of the knots.

Note the Irish jacket fasted with yellow olivets and not ball buttons as a British O/R jacket would have been (I think).

I am still waiting for info on the buttons - but looking at the photo provided the button on the epaulette does not appear to be a ball button.

John.

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by connaught

Pics from Collins Barracks, can't remember what exactly, Officers dress uniforms I think.

If I recall correctly the left hand image is the tunic worn by Maj. General Michael Brennan, Army Chief of Staff, 1931 to 1940. The middle image is an O/R tunic of the Mounted Escort and the right is a collection of Officers Full dress shakos and tunics 1935 – 1955 various corps and ranks.

John