6th Dragoon Guards Officers Helmet

[keflin2612]

Hi Fellow Badgers,
I'm looking for some help on a 6th Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers) Officer's Helmet that I have had for some time and I'm trying to refurbish it.
I have two questions,

Number 1) Does anyone know where I can purchase a square securing nut for the plume. "I don't know if they are a standard thread or not."


Number 2) Does anyone know how long the plume should be.

Cheers.
Kev

[leigh kitchen]

May be of no help, and the fittings will be repro, but you may source space-filler parts for the helmet here:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~thinred/catalogue.htm

[Lancer 17]

Originally Posted by keflin2612

Hi Fellow Badgers,
I'm looking for some help on a 6th Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers) Officer's Helmet that I have had for some time and I'm trying to refurbish it.
I have two questions,

Number 1) Does anyone know where I can purchase a square securing nut for the plume. "I don't know if they are a standard thread or not."


Number 2) Does anyone know how long the plume should be.

Cheers.
Kev

Hi Kev

Sorry I cant help you with the nut, however the 1900 Dress Regulations at paragraph 291 on page 20 states that the 6th DG plume is white horse hair for officers and that the plume rises 2" from the point of insertion in the socket and falls to the bottom of the helmet.

If you would like to Pm me your email address I can send you a scan of the relevant paragraph.

Regards Phil.

[keflin2612]

Thanks guys, that's brilliant, thank you.

Kev.

[cavalryman]

Hi Kev, I contacted this guy who made a full set of Irish Guards "St Patrick's blue" plumes for me, that was quite a few years ago. but can definitely recommend him from the specialty work I have seen at first hand, he knows how to do the work. regards John http://theplumery.co.uk/modern%20mil...y%20plumes.htm

[Neibelungen]

The nuts for the base of the plume stems will be set by the manufacturers originally and aren't specified in any documents.. Basically they picked an imperial guage and used that one.
Firmin's at one time had a set of non-standard threads they used for a lot of their fittings.

As mentioned above, Louise from the Plumery is the person to speak too regarding plume length as he had been the primary supplier for most horsehair plumes to the MOD for the last 30 years.

Basically the length, if it's specified in the Dress Regs, would be the primary source and would cross over into sealed patterns and counter-samples from the pattern room.
Usually the manufacturer would basically set their own standard and that would become the sealed pattern, though. like dies, any supplier would end up with their variations.
In practise, what happenes is it's determined by the length of hair available , woven and made up and then steamed and then cropped to where it's even. and then sent off. The regiment would then trim or alter it to what it perceived was a univerlas norm or a regimental standard it set .
I've a set of dress regs owned by one of the original plume manufacturers (1870's and 1880's) where they annotated their own changes and notes alongside the relevant passages and stapled a few correspondences and changes into the rear.

[leigh kitchen]

Thanks Button for that info.

[keflin2612]

Thanks to everyone for your help and the fantastic info, I will give Plumery a ring. "Thanks John"

I have found my old copy of "Head Dress of the British Heavy Cavalry" in the loft "it's a bit worse for wear" but it states in there that the plume rises 2" from the point of insertion in the socket and falls to the bottom of the helmet "as already stated on here by you guys" but it goes onto say that some 1st, 2nd, 6th and 7th Dragoon Guards plumes have been found with a height of 2 5/8 inches and the length falling well short of that described in the Dress Regs.
It also shows a Black & White photo 'c1885' of a 6th Dragoons helmet with a short plume, this is the same as my helmet which also has a short plume.

Kev.

[Neibelungen]

Just to add:

As somebody who has made items for the regiments and the MOD (via subcontracts etc) including plume stems, quite often you are supplied a pattern or a rough sketch/dimension and how that is made up is essentially down to the manufucturer, his experience of doing them or similar and reference to other parts or similar objects.
So what tends to happen is these things change over time in gradual steps between orders. One batch might have a slightly thinner wooden boss for the horsehair, so the base disc is moved up to compensate. This then goes into the next production, which goes back to the same original thickness boss, but that means the top of the rod becomes too short, so the whole thing is moved up. The threading and nut is based on whatever die and tap you have to hand, as it makes no difference to the part, since your supplying them as a complete unit. So BSW, BA, ME etc. Ditto the top rose. You solder a threaded tube into it and tap the stem end. If it's too short you extend the tube with a blind end.
When it's all done with the same company making the whole item, it broadly stays consistent, but where plumes and stems etc are replaced part way through service life, often it goes out locally or even unofficially. And that then becomes eventually a regimental 'tradition'. All your other existing parts look that way so you need consistency of appearance.

Hope that helps explain why changes happen without changing.