Oxf & Bucks LI / 1st GreenJackets Cap?

[leigh kitchen]

This cap has no coloured piping and is the plain dark green cap of light infantry regiments if the detachable black mohair band is removed.
The buttons are the St Edwards Crown black horn or plastic ones of the Green Jacket Brigade and later the Royal Green Jackets (and now the Rifles?)They are sewn directly to the cap, not to the mohair band.

Given the combination of the lack of black piping to the cap, the presence of Green Jacket Brigade buttons and the black mohair band, and the caps date of manufacture, 1963, am I right in thinking that this is an Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry cap "converted" to wear by the 1st Bn after they became the 1st Green Jackets (Regiment) within the Green Jackets Brigade (and prior to becoming the 1st Bn of the "new" regiment named the Royal Green Jackets)?
In which case it would bear the Green Jackets Brigade cap badge?

The cap is by J Compton Sons & Webb London, ink stamped on the sweatband is "1963" and written on it is a fairly distinctive name, "L/CPL FOZARD. G. (BAND)"

[leigh kitchen]

A few more photos.
Could it be that the cap was even worn after the formation of 1 RGJ from the 1st Green Jackets?

[Mike H]

I have an image of the bandmaster of 1GJ . Its difficult to tell if his cap is piped. He is certainly wearing a rifle green cap with black band. I find its very difficult to tell because rifle green is so dark. His badge looks to be set a lot higher than yours Leigh.

[leigh kitchen]

Thanks, the badge on mine is fitted with the slider slipped into a slit in the thread at the centre of the horizontal seam immediately above the top of the black band, the norm for most badges although the cap predates the brass "clip" fitting at that location.
Any idea re. the black band, if it was worn by ORs in the RB, and /or the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Green Jackets prior to being worn by RGJ?

[grey_green_acorn]

Leigh and Mike.

This may be of interest. In colour but quality not great. It shows soldiers from the 3 regiments (note different colour stripes).

https://www.britishpathe.com/video/g...kets-new-dress

Tim

[leigh kitchen]

Thank you, that sounds very interesting (although I can't
View it on my current means, I'll have to get to a desktop).
I note that while the footage is entitled "Green Jackets New Dress 1962", the short summary states "Soldiers of the Royal Green Jackets show off their regiments new uniform" (the RGJ' being formed from the Green Jackets Brigade on 1/1/66).

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn

Leigh and Mike.

This may be of interest. In colour but quality not great. It shows soldiers from the 3 regiments (note different colour stripes).

https://www.britishpathe.com/video/g...kets-new-dress

Tim

And the old pattern Green Jackets para wing with gold wings ,rather than edged in gold.

[Dan M]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

...Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry... 1st Bn... after they became the 1st Green Jackets (Regiment) within the Green Jackets Brigade...

This is a very interesting thread, and it brings to mind a question I've had about the formation of the Green Jackets Brigade for some time. I've asked it on other forums but no one seems to know why.

What was the reason for including the Ox and Bucks LI in the Green Jackets Brigade when it was formed? Back in the day, didn't they wear scarlet tunics and green caps like the other LI regiments? Was there an historical or other reason, other than just balancing out the battalion numbers between the Green Jackets and LI brigades?

Any ideas or speculation would be welcome.

Cheers,
Dan.

[leigh kitchen]

The Oxf & Bucks LI became 1st Green Jackets as "balancing out".
Unfortunately I can't remember why this "honour" fell to them (original unit converted to LI, special relationship with Sir John Moore?)
Now all I've got to do is find the reference for what I've stated.
In 1803 the 43rd and 52nd, the component regiments of the Oxf & Bucks and the 95th, the future Rifle Brigade, formed what became the original Light Division, a link / excuse for the Oxf & Bucks LI's inclusion in the Green Jacket Brigade.

[grey_green_acorn]

Yes, according to Gaylor in 1958 the Light Infantry Brigade took five regiments and linked two of them (Somerset LI and DCLI) to leave four. SCLI, KOYLI, KSLI and DLI.

In 1958 the Green Jackets Brigade had only the KRRC and RB so 'received' the Ox & Bucks LI as it was 'found necessary to put that regiment (although the oldest LI regiment) into the Green Jackets Brigade to ensure adequate numbers.

They retained distinctive 43rd/52nd shoulder titles until 1966 when they became the 1st Battalion of the 'large regiment' the Royal Green Jackets and adopted a standard RGJ shoulder title and cap badge.

I doubt the move from LI to Green Jackets was taken with good grace but subsequent 'mergers and amalgamations' were equally unpopular at the time. The 1992 'options for change' regiments are now more than 25 years old while the Brigade system existed for only 12 years (only 8 for the large regiments)!

Tim

[grey_green_acorn]

From the excellent "Light Bobs" website www.lightbobs.com
1958 Regimental Chronicle 1st Bn Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry - Transcribed by Steve Berridge
Summary of the 43rd and 52nd Diary 1958 while stationed in Cyprus:

November 7th - The Regiment became 1st Green Jackets, 43rd and 52nd.
New cap badges were taken into use. Private soldiers were styled Rifleman.

http://www.lightbobs.com/1-oxf--bucks-li---1958.html

From 1957:

July 25th - The Regiment learned of its future after the Reorganisation of the Army; it is to become part of the Green Jackets Brigade.

August 6th - A letter was received from the Colonel of the Regiment on the future transfer of the Regiment to the Green Jackets.

October 5th - The Commanding Officer spoke to all officers, warrant officers, and regular N.C.O.s on the possible future of the Regiment, and gave details of the new proposals for dress.

From a letter in the diary:

"The biggest change in the Infantry since 1881 has been more kind to us than to many other regiments. Far from being upset by any major upheaval, we rejoin associates of Peninsular days, though not without regret at leaving the Light Infantry Brigade. Several messages occasioned by this change are reproduced elsewhere in this Chronicle. Many points still remain to be settled, and it would be premature to make any comment on what changes are likely to affect the title, dress, or custom of the Regiment. However, we shall retain our Colours, and are in the process of arranging to get the ten new Battle Honours placed on the Queen's Colour "


Tim

[Dan M]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

The Oxf & Bucks LI became 1st Green Jackets as "balancing out". Unfortunately I can't remember why this "honour" fell to them (original unit converted to LI, special relationship with Sir John Moore?)

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn

In 1958 the Green Jackets Brigade had only the KRRC and RB so 'received' the Ox & Bucks LI as it was found necessary to put that regiment (although the oldest LI regiment) into the Green Jackets Brigade to ensure adequate numbers.

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn

Private soldiers were styled Rifleman.

"However, we shall retain our Colours, and are in the process of arranging to get the ten new Battle Honours placed on the Queen's Colour "

Leigh and Tim,

Thank you for the excellent replies. It seems to me, the answer is simply that someone had to move from the LI to GJ brigade, and the powers that be selected the oldest or senior LI regiment (and the only true LI regiment as the five others opted for the title well after all the infantry regiments became infantry of the line) because of the historical connection from the Napoleonic wars. Reforming the Light Division, as it were.

Interesting that the 1st Green Jackets kept their Colours after redesignation. Maybe they didn't consider themselves a Rifle regiment per se, even though the privates became riflemen.

Perhaps there was the eternal hope that one day, all this change would be reversed, and the Ox and Bucks would emerge again.

Cheers,
Dan.

[bobanodised]

If you look on Australian ebay there is a 60’s KSLI Green cap, I visited the seller in February with a view to buying it but the cap buttons were of current LI issue so I was put off

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

This cap has no coloured piping and is the plain dark green cap of light infantry regiments if the detachable black mohair band is removed.
The buttons are the St Edwards Crown black horn or plastic ones of the Green Jacket Brigade and later the Royal Green Jackets (and now the Rifles?)They are sewn directly to the cap, not to the mohair band.

Given the combination of the lack of black piping to the cap, the presence of Green Jacket Brigade buttons and the black mohair band, and the caps date of manufacture, 1963, am I right in thinking that this is an Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry cap "converted" to wear by the 1st Bn after they became the 1st Green Jackets (Regiment) within the Green Jackets Brigade (and prior to becoming the 1st Bn of the "new" regiment named the Royal Green Jackets)?
In which case it would bear the Green Jackets Brigade cap badge?

The cap is by J Compton Sons & Webb London, ink stamped on the sweatband is "1963" and written on it is a fairly distinctive name, "L/CPL FOZARD. G. (BAND)"

[leigh kitchen]

Originally Posted by bobanodised

If you look on Australian ebay there is a 60’s KSLI Green cap, I visited the seller in February with a view to buying it but the cap buttons were of current LI issue so I was put off

Thanks for that - I tried to find the entry on eBay but couldn't. I'll regroup and try again.

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by bobanodised

If you look on Australian ebay there is a 60’s KSLI Green cap, I visited the seller in February with a view to buying it but the cap buttons were of current LI issue so I was put off

Do you have a link to it Bob,i couldnt see it ?