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  #31  
Old 03-10-20, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack8 View Post
There is an example of a badge in forum member Luc's Parachute Regiment Cap Badge album that he describes as a replica voided crown pattern. In my opinion it is a Firmin pattern badge identical to the officers Firmin London marked badge.
I would agree with you Jack. I’d be happy to have that badge in my collection as genuine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrown View Post
Another example of the badge for sale here https://www.ebay.ca/itm/WW2-Parachut...97.m4902.l9144

It looks like a restrike with maybe "dustbin lid" lugs. Any confirmation, Luke?
Again, I agree. Not a badge I would buy or have in my collection.
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  #32  
Old 03-10-20, 05:39 PM
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Default parachute regiment "replica voided crown pattern"

Good evening gents,

The "replica voided crown pattern" parachute regiment badge from Luc's album is another interesting and controversial badge.
Its lines are also asymmetrical and similar to the non-voided one in post #1.

I've attached images of two voided badges with almost the same pattern for comparison.
There's a difference in the lions legs though.

Ow, and I would be very happy to add silverwash's badge to my modest collection.

Marinus

PRA-BADGE-06-1.jpgPRA-BADGE-06-2.jpgPRA-BADGE-13-1.jpgPRA-BADGE-13-2.jpg

Last edited by marinus; 04-10-20 at 06:57 AM. Reason: Added the "There's a difference in the lions legs though." remark.
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  #33  
Old 03-10-20, 07:28 PM
Jack8 Jack8 is offline
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This is an interesting old thread featuring the AAC voided crown badge which I believe to be a Gaunt pattern badge identical to the hallmarked example. I appreciate what has been said about footed lugs appearing on modern restrikes and copies but I feel care should be taken in case we condemn genuine badges with feet.

This pattern of AAC badge is a scarce badge and not reproduced to the best of my knowledge. I have a few examples and all others I have seen have lugs with reasonable sized feet. I have also seen the Gaunt lug catalogue with footed lugs.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ead.php?t=7152
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  #34  
Old 03-10-20, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack8 View Post
This is an interesting old thread featuring the AAC voided crown badge which I believe to be a Gaunt pattern badge identical to the hallmarked example. I appreciate what has been said about footed lugs appearing on modern restrikes and copies but I feel care should be taken in case we condemn genuine badges with feet.

This pattern of AAC badge is a scarce badge and not reproduced to the best of my knowledge. I have a few examples and all others I have seen have lugs with reasonable sized feet. I have also seen the Gaunt lug catalogue with footed lugs.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ead.php?t=7152
If you’re referring to this wonderful badge https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...5&d=1250023722 yes it does have feet. My point above is there are feet and then there are ‘feet’.

After the Edwardian period practically all loops had feet. Indeed even prior to this if you study the early Gaunt catalogue you’ll see some that do, even in that period, have a small foot. Size and shape of the foot and loop itself is what’s relevant.

Also note how with Chris’s badge it has gold braze run down the loop, you don’t get that with fakes and repros.

I would not for one second doubt Chris’s badge looking at the loop. Rather compare his to the ones I’ve posted above and to me the difference is quite stark.
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  #35  
Old 04-10-20, 08:01 AM
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Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
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Described as WW2!



Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrown View Post
Another example of the badge for sale here https://www.ebay.ca/itm/WW2-Parachut...97.m4902.l9144

It looks like a restrike with maybe "dustbin lid" lugs. Any confirmation, Luke?
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  #36  
Old 04-10-20, 09:26 AM
pahannah pahannah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrown View Post
Very interesting discussion, Gents about a controversial badge.
I have a similar one which came with a 1945 Kangol beret.
Attachment 231300 Attachment 231301

I've made a few close-up comparisons with the photos provided by Marinus. We can clearly see the die flaws on mine.
Attachment 231305Attachment 231304

However, the badges don't seem quite identical, particularly the lion.
Attachment 231303

What's interesting is the way the unsymmetrical lugs distance which makes me think that the badge is original to the beret.
Of note, my badge has been slightly polished (rigging lines and crown) which doesn't seem to be the case for the other one.
Attachment 231306

I would love to see a better photo of Paul's badge. Difficult to come up with a definitive conclusion on this variant as it seems.
Looking forward to seeing your comments.
Sorry about being so slow.

I have attached some photos, they are not great quality. The brass one has some differences, (there is a separate older thread on brass badges so may add to that one rather than debate them here) its here because its a very similar badge to the one under scrutiny.

no die flaws, and different feet and no dustbin lid. The feathers are much more rounded and defined, and the thickness and general feel is better than the white metal. From the back the brass is much more defined. The rigging looks the same and i see no issues with that design.

I do not have the white metal one as I returned it, mostly because of the braze to the front, and lack of rear definition. I do have another similar white metal one , with only one of the die flaws that I can see. I will keep that one just in case someone comes up with a definitive case.

Kind Regards
Paul
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg badges side view.jpeg (88.7 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpeg badges top view.jpeg (57.9 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg badges rear view.jpg (79.5 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpeg badges rear view2.jpeg (93.3 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpeg badge lugs view.jpeg (93.3 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg badges front view.jpg (55.2 KB, 19 views)
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  #37  
Old 04-10-20, 09:34 AM
pahannah pahannah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pahannah View Post
Sorry about being so slow.

I have attached some photos, they are not great quality. The brass one has some differences, (there is a separate older thread on brass badges so may add to that one rather than debate them here) its here because its a very similar badge to the one under scrutiny.

no die flaws, and different feet and no dustbin lid. The feathers are much more rounded and defined, and the thickness and general feel is better than the white metal. From the back the brass is much more defined. The rigging looks the same and i see no issues with that design.

I do not have the white metal one as I returned it, mostly because of the braze to the front, and lack of rear definition. I do have another similar white metal one , with only one of the die flaws that I can see. I will keep that one just in case someone comes up with a definitive case.

Kind Regards
Paul
A couple of extra pictures. On both the lion seems to face forward, and the rear legs and body are different on the brass one.
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg crown.jpeg (109.8 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpeg crown 2.jpeg (110.7 KB, 19 views)
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  #38  
Old 05-10-20, 03:53 AM
tcrown tcrown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
Dustbin lidded lugs is a bit of a colloquial term which you’ll find used by several members. My use of the term is to reference modern copper loops with a large flattened foot which is splayed out and wider than the gauge of the loop wire. These are very common on 1970s and beyond fakes.
Luke, thank you for your input on my badge and for clarifying your point about the lugs. Honestly, lugs might be the only tangible element to separate older badges from less obvious copies of this very controversial badge type.

Modern copies are relatively easy to spot. Besides lugs, the rear of these is quite shiny and glossy with a particular lack of details like on the M&B repro that was mentioned (see a comparison below with my badge).
Comp MB.jpg

That leaves a vast grey area for the older copies produced prior to the 70s.

I still believe this pattern was genuinely issued but has maybe been restricken more often than the other ones.
Non-voided para badges were first issued later in the war and have been extensively copied or reissued, some of them being mounted on sliders like the Gaunt type. So why this type could not have had a similar fate?

The rear of badges is often revealing. I put together Silverwash’s and my badge along with the badge that is the topic of interest in this thread.
Comp Silverwash.jpg Fake 2 Rear.jpg

It looks to me the latter is quite glossy and immaculate as opposed to the other ones despite better level of details. Could it be another way of spotting a fake?

As usual other comments and opinions are appreciated.
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  #39  
Old 05-10-20, 03:59 AM
tcrown tcrown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pahannah View Post
A couple of extra pictures. On both the lion seems to face forward, and the rear legs and body are different on the brass one.
Thanks Paul.
Could you post close-ups of the lion on both badges?
I have to admit I'm not a huge fan of the brass one. I don't know about the other one. Could you post a close-up of the rear of this one as well?
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  #40  
Old 05-10-20, 04:09 AM
tcrown tcrown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marinus View Post
The "replica voided crown pattern" parachute regiment badge from Luc's album is another interesting and controversial badge.
Its lines are also asymmetrical and similar to the non-voided one in post #1.
Marinus, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the convergence of rigging lines. A sealed card was produced on March 25th, 1943 (ref O. Lock's book p86) with a similar badge. I have one myself. I'll have a look to see the differences. Stay tune.
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  #41  
Old 05-10-20, 07:28 AM
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Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
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I hope you did not pay much for either of those, they appear to be of recent manufacture and therefore spurious.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pahannah View Post
Sorry about being so slow.

I have attached some photos, they are not great quality. The brass one has some differences, (there is a separate older thread on brass badges so may add to that one rather than debate them here) its here because its a very similar badge to the one under scrutiny.

no die flaws, and different feet and no dustbin lid. The feathers are much more rounded and defined, and the thickness and general feel is better than the white metal. From the back the brass is much more defined. The rigging looks the same and i see no issues with that design.

I do not have the white metal one as I returned it, mostly because of the braze to the front, and lack of rear definition. I do have another similar white metal one , with only one of the die flaws that I can see. I will keep that one just in case someone comes up with a definitive case.

Kind Regards
Paul
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  #42  
Old 05-10-20, 11:07 AM
Jack8 Jack8 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrown View Post
Luke, thank you for your input on my badge and for clarifying your point about the lugs. Honestly, lugs might be the only tangible element to separate older badges from less obvious copies of this very controversial badge type.

Modern copies are relatively easy to spot. Besides lugs, the rear of these is quite shiny and glossy with a particular lack of details like on the M&B repro that was mentioned (see a comparison below with my badge).
Attachment 231776

That leaves a vast grey area for the older copies produced prior to the 70s.

I still believe this pattern was genuinely issued but has maybe been restricken more often than the other ones.
Non-voided para badges were first issued later in the war and have been extensively copied or reissued, some of them being mounted on sliders like the Gaunt type. So why this type could not have had a similar fate?

The rear of badges is often revealing. I put together Silverwash’s and my badge along with the badge that is the topic of interest in this thread.
Attachment 231778 Attachment 231779

It looks to me the latter is quite glossy and immaculate as opposed to the other ones despite better level of details. Could it be another way of spotting a fake?

As usual other comments and opinions are appreciated.
What makes you think non voided Parachute Regiment badges were produced later in the war? The Gaunt officers pattern was first produced with Birmingham date letter S which apparently runs from May/June 1942 to May/June 1943 when the first badges were likely to have been made and stamped with an S before the change to date later T.
I would wager that they produced an other ranks badge with a non voided crown around the same time which apart from the solid crown is of the same pattern as the silver officers badge.
I don't believe that the first badge was the voided crown badge that most collectors seem to think. For what it's worth I also don't believe a brass badge was worn by the Parachute Regiment, the examples I have seen tend to be of the patterns that were produced in white metal and nickel plated on brass which could explain the brass badges in existence.
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  #43  
Old 05-10-20, 04:00 PM
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Default underneath the spreading chestnut tree

I imagine these feet would look out of place on a Parachute Regiment cap badge.
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File Type: jpg underneath the spreading chestnut tree.jpg (66.4 KB, 19 views)
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  #44  
Old 06-10-20, 01:52 AM
tcrown tcrown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack8 View Post
What makes you think non voided Parachute Regiment badges were produced later in the war?
As already stated earlier in this thread, a sealed card introducing the Para badge with a voided crown was released in March 1943. It seems that the distribution was very slow and not a lot of photos showing the new badge being worn that year can be found in the archives. This is not necessarily surprising as 1st Brigade was fighting in North Africa and couldn’t get the new badge easily. Most of the soldiers were still wearing the AAC badge at the time.
Sgt Lewis Tamera Oct 1943.JPG NA 7682 New Para Badge Oct 1943 Sgt M Lewis 2 Para.jpg
One photo (source IWM) shows Sgt Lewis of 2 Para in Oct 1943 returning to Tamera (Tunisia) after recovering from multiple wounds. The legend says “new badge of the Parachute Regt” with voided crown. He could have secured the coveted badge in England.

The 6th AB Div was in formation mid-1943. The various units could have received the new badge in priority. This photo (source IWM) was taken in Sept 1943 during the Allied paratroopers’ competition in Leven.
HU 128106 Sept 1943 Allied paratroopers' competition in Leven.jpg
We can see a collection of Para badges. Voided or non-voided, that’s impossible to tell.

To illustrate how procuring the new badge was a struggle, here’s a photo (source IWM) taken in April 1944 with three members of 4 Para (Privates Healy, Collins & Bowman) in Italy (Venafro) die casting the badge using melted-down metal from safety caps of mortar bombs.
Privates Healy Collins Bowman ca 1943 NA14473 April 1944.jpg

I tried to provide evidences that the new badge was difficult to get in 1943 and most likely the non-voided version would have been produced in priority as being the official standard accepted by the Army Clothing Dpt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack8 View Post
The Gaunt officers pattern was first produced with Birmingham date letter S which apparently runs from May/June 1942 to May/June 1943 when the first badges were likely to have been made and stamped with an S before the change to date later T.
I know of a hallmark silver Gaunt badge which is stamped with an S. It is reproduced in O. Lock’s book on page 90 and it is voided.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack8 View Post
I would wager that they produced an other ranks badge with a non voided crown around the same time which apart from the solid crown is of the same pattern as the silver officers badge.
It would be good to have some evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack8 View Post
I don't believe that the first badge was the voided crown badge that most collectors seem to think.
The sealed card provides good evidence, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack8 View Post
For what it's worth I also don't believe a brass badge was worn by the Parachute Regiment, the examples I have seen tend to be of the patterns that were produced in white metal and nickel plated on brass which could explain the brass badges in existence.
I would agree with that.
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  #45  
Old 06-10-20, 08:45 AM
Jack8 Jack8 is offline
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In my opinion the sealed pattern card badge is similar if not identical to the Gaunt pattern badge. It is nothing like the other ranks voided crown pattern that some collectors believe was the first pattern badge worn.

All the WW2 era Parachute Regiment Officers badges that I own and have seen are typically voided crown whether hallmarked or not and were made by Gaunt, Firmin and Ludlow, each with their distinctive patterns. I have not seen an other ranks Gaunt badge with a voided crown.

I agree that it would be nice to have hard evidence of the timeline of these badges, it just seems logical that the Gaunt other ranks badge would have been produced around the time of the first date letter S officers badge being of the same pattern but with a non voided crown.

The Gaunt officers badge is the only one that I am aware of that provides evidence in the form of a hallmark that the new badge was produced in 1943. I have not seen a Firmin hallmarked Parachute Regiment badge and would welcome any evidence of their existence as they did produce a hallmarked AAC badge as did Gaunt. I am not aware that Ludlow hallmarked their badges apart from a STERLING mark, again any evidence to the contrary would be welcome.
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