British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Airborne, Elite and Special Forces Insignia

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 08-10-20, 04:50 AM
marinus's Avatar
marinus marinus is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 100
Default "Replica voided crown" para badge

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ictureid=26395

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ictureid=26394


Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrown View Post
Can you provide a link to Luc's badge? I believe the badge on eBay is a replica.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 08-10-20, 08:16 PM
Jack8 Jack8 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 598
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrown View Post
Sorry Jack, I misinterpreted what you wanted to say about officers' badges. Yes, private purchase silver or silver plate examples with a solid back have voided crowns. It doesn't mean officers worn only these badges during WW2.

I'm more interested in the white metal badges with a voided crown made by Gaunt and other makers. They were not necessarily ordnance issues. Some could have been made available for private purchase as well. I'm more and more convinced of the fact that the original design presented challenges in the manufacturing process and could have been only offered in silver or silver plate because they proved to be too costly to mass produce for the other ranks.

This could have led to a simplified pattern (non-voided) a little bit later (could still have been in the course of 1943).
We know about the other voided pattern with a larger crown (just like the ones Jerry has posted), quite different from the original sealed design. It looks to me it could have been ordnance issue given the large number of surviving examples. Very difficult to imagine when this pattern was issued but it could have been later in the war (ie 1944). Looking forward to reading your views.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say you are more interested in the white metal badges with a voided crown made by Gaunt and other makers. White metal badges were intended for wear by other ranks and officers badges in silver or silver plate. As far as I am aware Gaunt made non voided badges for other ranks in white metal using a die stamped process, where the the obverse detail is clearly evident on the reverse. The officers badges were made in hallmarked silver, silver plate marked with a letter P and unmarked silver plate. There may have been unmarked silver and sterling marked badges but I have not seen one yet. These officers badges have no obverse detail visible on the reverse and were of superior construction.

I have not yet seen a white metal example of the Gaunt pattern with a voided crown for wear by other ranks, I have also not seen an officers badge by Gaunt in white metal to the Parachute Regiment of typical officers construction. I am happy to be proved wrong but that is my understanding based on my collection and what I have read and seen from other collections. I also believe that other ranks badges were issued and that officers purchased their own. Having said that what was actually worn in WW2 may have had some variation according to clothing regulations.

It is interesting that Army Clothing Instruction 757 of 1943 - Clothing Parachute Regiment Badges and Buttons states that officers cap badges are in silver and other ranks cap badges are in white metal. It also states that officers should wear other ranks badges in white metal for the duration of the war as a measure of economy. The following document was posted on this forum by member Graham Stewart a number of years ago:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Parachute Regiment ACI 757-43.jpg (53.5 KB, 17 views)
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 09-10-20, 01:42 AM
tcrown tcrown is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 235
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack8 View Post
I have not yet seen a white metal example of the Gaunt pattern with a voided crown for wear by other ranks, I have also not seen an officers badge by Gaunt in white metal to the Parachute Regiment of typical officers construction.
This is precisely the interesting point: I believe the voided badge on the sealed card is white metal or nickel-plated brass. If we assume it was made by Gaunt which is quite possible, why is it that no other example can’t be found? This suggests that for some reason Gaunt produced the same pattern with voided crown for private purchase (silver or silver-plated) but decided to go with a non-voided pattern for ordnance issue (which I believe came much later).
In the meantime, other makers proposed their voided crown pattern (both in silver and WM) and we have evidence that these were worn by NCOs: I provided a photo of Sgt Lewis taken in Tunisia on Oct 1943. It looks like his voided badge is the Ludlow pattern.Sgt Lewis Oct 1943 Close-up.jpg

The Firmin pattern presents similarities with the original one on the sealed card and could have been ordnance issued in a simplified version (no fretted legs, as Marinus puts it, or carving around the lion’s tail) https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...1&d=1601743863.

I think the Ludlow pattern in WM was just available for private purchase (the solid back made it too costly for ordnance issue). That leaves the last voided pattern (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...5&d=1602079130 thanks Jerry!) the best candidate for issuance to OR. This badge is not rare which I believe indicates it was at some point massively distributed by the Army Clothing Dpt. When was it issued? Impossible to tell but given the shortage of badge it could very well not have been issued before the end of 1943. Once again, my theory is that a modified pattern might have been accepted by the Army (ie with a solid crown) to expedite the production of badges. For this reason, the voided crown badges were probably issued first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack8 View Post
It is interesting that Army Clothing Instruction 757 of 1943 - Clothing Parachute Regiment Badges and Buttons states that officers cap badges are in silver and other ranks cap badges are in white metal. It also states that officers should wear other ranks badges in white metal for the duration of the war as a measure of economy. The following document was posted on this forum by member Graham Stewart a number of years ago:
Thanks for sharing. This is a very interesting document indeed. It clearly refers to potential difficulties for issuing the new badge on item #5 ‘…hastening action will not be taken since demands will be met as stocks become available.’ This more or less confirms the badge shortage in 1943.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 09-10-20, 10:48 AM
Jack8 Jack8 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 598
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrown View Post
This is precisely the interesting point: I believe the voided badge on the sealed card is white metal or nickel-plated brass. If we assume it was made by Gaunt which is quite possible, why is it that no other example can’t be found? This suggests that for some reason Gaunt produced the same pattern with voided crown for private purchase (silver or silver-plated) but decided to go with a non-voided pattern for ordnance issue (which I believe came much later).
In the meantime, other makers proposed their voided crown pattern (both in silver and WM) and we have evidence that these were worn by NCOs: I provided a photo of Sgt Lewis taken in Tunisia on Oct 1943. It looks like his voided badge is the Ludlow pattern.Attachment 231974

The Firmin pattern presents similarities with the original one on the sealed card and could have been ordnance issued in a simplified version (no fretted legs, as Marinus puts it, or carving around the lion’s tail) https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...1&d=1601743863.

I think the Ludlow pattern in WM was just available for private purchase (the solid back made it too costly for ordnance issue). That leaves the last voided pattern (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...5&d=1602079130 thanks Jerry!) the best candidate for issuance to OR. This badge is not rare which I believe indicates it was at some point massively distributed by the Army Clothing Dpt. When was it issued? Impossible to tell but given the shortage of badge it could very well not have been issued before the end of 1943. Once again, my theory is that a modified pattern might have been accepted by the Army (ie with a solid crown) to expedite the production of badges. For this reason, the voided crown badges were probably issued first.


Thanks for sharing. This is a very interesting document indeed. It clearly refers to potential difficulties for issuing the new badge on item #5 ‘…hastening action will not be taken since demands will be met as stocks become available.’ This more or less confirms the badge shortage in 1943.
It is a pity the sealed pattern card does not clearly state if the example on it is an other ranks or officers badge ( it states 54/officers/3843 bottom right but I am unsure whether this is reference to the badge, however it also states that a vertical shank should be used which is in keeping with other ranks badges.). It also does not state in what metal it was made, other cards I have seen do provided this information. One thing that is clear is that the sealed pattern clearly does not match the voided crown badge which Lock himself states on page 87.

As I have said before it is my opinion that the sealed pattern badge is a very close if not identical match to a Gaunt pattern badge. I have no idea why Gaunt didn't produce a voided crown other ranks badge but they were not alone in this and it may be a matter of ease and speed of production. What I do know is that they produced a hallmarked badge in 1943 and can only speculate as to when they produced a corresponding other ranks badge in white metal, but it is difficult to understand why a large company like Gaunt would be late to the game in producing the new other ranks badge for ordnance issue having produced the officers version.

I genuinely cannot make out a Ludlow pattern or any other pattern badge from the photograph of Sgt. Lewis. It is impossible to say for certain which badge was the earliest issued and to speculate too much makes me uncomfortable, my leaning is towards the non voided badges in white metal but obviously cannot rule out your suggestion. Perhaps it should be the topic of another thread as we have deviated from the original post and while it is good to have discussion I think we had better agree to disagree on which was the earliest for now.

Cheers,
Jack
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 09-10-20, 01:16 PM
marinus's Avatar
marinus marinus is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 100
Default Sealed pattern badge in Oliver Lock's book is made by Gaunt?

Jack,

I think you are right "that the sealed pattern badge is a very close if not identical match to a Gaunt pattern badge".

Marinus

GAUNT-PARA-1.jpg

Last edited by marinus; 09-10-20 at 01:17 PM. Reason: changed thing to think
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 09-10-20, 07:55 PM
silverwash's Avatar
silverwash silverwash is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 404
Default

continuing the deviation,

" There may have been unmarked silver and sterling marked badges but I have not seen one yet. These officers badges have no obverse detail visible on the reverse and were of superior construction "

I have resisted the temptation for ages now to dunk it in Silverdip and remove the severe tarnish. a bit like how some WW1 British War Medals end up, black as the "Ace of Spades ".
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCF0308.jpg (52.0 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF0309.jpg (38.9 KB, 28 views)
__________________
" the art of collecting badges, darker'n a black steer's tookus on a moonless prairie night "
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 09-10-20, 09:18 PM
Jack8 Jack8 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 598
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverwash View Post
continuing the deviation,

" There may have been unmarked silver and sterling marked badges but I have not seen one yet. These officers badges have no obverse detail visible on the reverse and were of superior construction "

I have resisted the temptation for ages now to dunk it in Silverdip and remove the severe tarnish. a bit like how some WW1 British War Medals end up, black as the "Ace of Spades ".
That's a beauty, I'm glad you posted it thank you. I can check it of my extant list. I would leave it as it is if it were mine, nicely toned as they also say about medals.

Jack.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 09-10-20, 09:22 PM
Jack8 Jack8 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 598
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by marinus View Post
Jack,

I think you are right "that the sealed pattern badge is a very close if not identical match to a Gaunt pattern badge".

Marinus

Attachment 232019
Thanks for combining the images for an easy comparison.

Jack
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 16-10-20, 09:03 PM
marinus's Avatar
marinus marinus is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 100
Default "controversial" non-voided crown para regiment badge

Good evening gents,

Today this badge fell on my doormat and I like to share a few pictures with you.
I think it's a nice badge but I'm still not sure if the pattern is genuine.
Will we ever learn?

Marinus

PARA-NON-VOIDED-WEIRD-LINES-1.jpgPARA-NON-VOIDED-WEIRD-LINES-2.jpg

PARA-NON-VOIDED-WEIRD-LINES-3.jpgPARA-NON-VOIDED-WEIRD-LINES-4.jpgPARA-NON-VOIDED-WEIRD-LINES-5.jpg
PARA-NON-VOIDED-WEIRD-LINES-6.jpgPARA-NON-VOIDED-WEIRD-LINES-7.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 17-10-20, 12:17 AM
tcrown tcrown is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 235
Default

Marinus, I believe your badge is original.
As for the pattern, we'll call it the 'Long Rear Leg' type, one of the 5 non voided types that can be found.
See below a few pics for comparison with my badge (same die flaws). We could have used Siverwash's badge as well.
Comp Marinus 1.jpg Comp Marinus 2.jpg Comp Marinus 3.jpg
Well done!
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 17-10-20, 02:33 PM
marinus's Avatar
marinus marinus is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 100
Default 'Long Rear Leg' type pattern parachute regiment badge

Thank you tcrown for combining the images for comparison.

I like "Long Rear Leg" as name for the type.
May I ask for the names for the other 4 non-voided types please?

Marinus

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrown View Post
Marinus, I believe your badge is original.
As for the pattern, we'll call it the 'Long Rear Leg' type, one of the 5 non voided types that can be found.
See below a few pics for comparison with my badge (same die flaws). We could have used Siverwash's badge as well.

Well done!
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 18-10-20, 04:38 PM
tcrown tcrown is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 235
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by marinus View Post
May I ask for the names for the other 4 non-voided types please?
Marinus, I would suggest the following:
- Gaunt with Die Flaws
- Gaunt without Die Flaws
- Long Lion Type
- Height-like Tail Type
I propose a separate discussion on the Gaunt badge type.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 19-10-20, 05:37 PM
marinus's Avatar
marinus marinus is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 100
Default parachute regiment non-voided types

Thank you very much indeed, tcrown.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:06 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.