British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > General Topics.

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 14-02-21, 02:19 PM
dpast32 dpast32 is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 20
Default IT REALLY ALL BUT IMPOSSIBLE TO DETERMINE BETWEEN WW1 & WW2 U.K. CAP BADGES ?

Good Morning Gentleman, I have been attempting to obtain an 'original' circa 1914 - 1920 production British Royal Army Cap Badge, preferably Officer's Grade, of the WW1 era South Staffordshire Regiment. Well, I have located numerous examples for sale, yet I remain hesitant to purchase one in that I am truly uncertain as to to ensure it will be of WW1 manufacture, & not of later WW2 era production ? I have briefly looked into this subject, yet can still not discern if of early manufacture ? ( Other than of course the visual clues, such as extensive aging, etc., of which they in themselves don't actually indicate anything except poor storage & or extreme usage. ) SO, ARE THERE ANY HINTS, OR CLUES TO LOOK FOR WHEN PURCHASING AN EXAMPLE FOR MY COLLECTION ? ALSO, what is the significance between relative attachment points on the badges' reverse, either an single 'slider', or the less commonly observed 2 loop type, with corresponding split pin ? I have once heard the ''loops w/ pin' type more often than not indicated an Officers' badge ? As you can see, I am very unsure as to what I need to look for in my pursuit of the proper, correct period SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE REGIMENT OFFICERS' GRADE CAP BADGE ? If anyone here would PLEASE be so kind as to assist me in this endeavor, I will be most deeply appreciative !! THANK YOU,

Best regards, dpast32 / Dom Pastore Jr.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 15-02-21, 05:04 PM
cbuehler cbuehler is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,020
Default

Well, when it comes to officer badges, which form of dress are you referring to?
Assuming for service dress, it would be bronzed with blade fixings. With few exceptions, it is impossible to date these as there was no difference from WW1 to WW2. One exception is to find an example marked J&Co. (Jennens) as that maker was purchased by Gaunt in the 1920s, so it would likely be of WW1 era or earlier make.

CB
__________________
Bdr. Parker Windle MM, A Btry. 210th (E. Lancs.) RFA WW1 , fr. Burnley
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 16-02-21, 02:40 PM
dpast32 dpast32 is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 20
Default

Good Morning 'CB', I truly appreciate your kind reply ! As I'm sure you're already aware, determining between an early WW1 manufacture versus later WW2 era production can be extremely difficult, unless of course you have available other indicators such as the rarely encountered Maker's Marking / Stamp. I had once read that Officer's quality Service Dress Cap Badges are often encountered in 'all brass' construction, although I honestly don't know how reliable that bit of information really is ? Along with that bit, the article went on to say that they were usually found with dual lug attachment points, with split pin, yet again I can't say how reliable these statements are ? My primary purpose here is to locate an example for display along with a WW1 M.C. Award Group I recently obtained, which had been presented to an American Physician serving within the RAMC, primarily attached to the 7th Battalion, South Staffordshire Regiment. I have found a candidate, but would prefer very much for you to add your comments as to it's suitability for my purposes ? ( I attempted to 'paste' it here, however was not successful ? ) So in lieu of that method, I will try to insert the actual Link for you to view. ( PLEASE SEE BELOW ) Hopefully I'm not breaking any of the Forum's rules by doing so ? And if I did, or am, I deeply apologize, ask for forgiveness. ) As we know, there are so very many examples out there, & when you're really not sure of what you need, it can become quite frustrating to say the least !! I THANK YOU again for your reply & kind assistance here, & will look forward to any additional comments & or input you wish to share. Take care,

Best regards, dpast32 / dpast32@aol.com

LINK:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/South-Staff...edirect=mobile
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 16-02-21, 04:35 PM
cbuehler cbuehler is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,020
Default

That badge on ebay is not what you want. That seller has mostly fakes and it is not the correct one anyway.
If you are looking for an officer service dress cap badge, this is an example what you are looking for. The information you have of "brass" badges is incorrect. I believe there was a 1916 economy issue in gilding metal, but that is a different story.
The shade of OSD bronze badges ranges from a light milk chocolate brown to nearly black. Again, in most cases, it is impossible to date them.
CB
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_9601.JPG (58.6 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_9602.JPG (75.2 KB, 23 views)
__________________
Bdr. Parker Windle MM, A Btry. 210th (E. Lancs.) RFA WW1 , fr. Burnley

Last edited by cbuehler; 16-02-21 at 04:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 16-02-21, 05:04 PM
dubaiguy's Avatar
dubaiguy dubaiguy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 717
Default

Why would he have worn a S. Staffs badge and not a RAMC badge?
Mark
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 16-02-21, 05:23 PM
dpast32 dpast32 is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 20
Default

Again, I THANK YOU very much, for at least now I have an actual photo to compare against when looking at potential candidates. I have observed that style of badge before, IIRC, maybe on the IWM's Page ? That example had an attached piece of tan colored, almost 'sandbag' like material affixed to the dual prongs on the reverse. Based upon where I found it, I assumed that it was an period manufactured piece. Hopefully, with enough searching, combined with close examination to be certain that it's indeed the one I'm looking for, I 'should' be able to find at least one or two examples for sale ? I mean I guess I don't absolutely need one, but I would really prefer to include one with my display.

Best regards, dpast32
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 16-02-21, 06:00 PM
dpast32 dpast32 is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 20
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dubaiguy View Post
Why would he have worn a S. Staffs badge and not a RAMC badge?
Mark
Hello Mark, & THANKS for your comment. You know what, that is a very good question ? I had initially thought about that, but due to his actual Military Cross citation, I just naturally focused on them, the 7th South Staff's. However, even though the 7th So. Staff's are the unit noted on the relevant U.K. War Department List announcing his M.C., he actually spent a great deal more time attached to other British units. ( RE: U.K. 'War Office List No. 40', Dated 18 July 1919 ) In addition to the U.S Army's Medical Reserve Corps, he also served with the British 33rd Field Ambulance Company, along with an Orthopedic Hospital in the U.K. Perhaps the 33rd Field Ambulance would be more appropriate ? Although I've been quite fortunate in researching him, I still haven't managed to document his total service dates when attached to any of the British units he served with. However, the hunt goes on as they say, right.

And just for the record, if anyone is interested enough to read about this interesting American Physician, feel free to look over my Post on the U.K. based GMIC Forum at; https://gmic.co.uk/topic/77429-pleas...corps-officer/

OK Gents, that's it for the moment. As always, anybody& all replies, comments, & input are very much appreciated. THANKS

Best, dpast32
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 16-02-21, 06:41 PM
dubaiguy's Avatar
dubaiguy dubaiguy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 717
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpast32 View Post
Again, I THANK YOU very much, for at least now I have an actual photo to compare against when looking at potential candidates. I have observed that style of badge before, IIRC, maybe on the IWM's Page ? That example had an attached piece of tan colored, almost 'sandbag' like material affixed to the dual prongs on the reverse. Based upon where I found it, I assumed that it was an period manufactured piece. Hopefully, with enough searching, combined with close examination to be certain that it's indeed the one I'm looking for, I 'should' be able to find at least one or two examples for sale ? I mean I guess I don't absolutely need one, but I would really prefer to include one with my display.

Best regards, dpast32
Dom
The backing is known as Brown Holland and I believe wasn't granted for wear until 1935 so the badge post dates what you are after. It was granted in recognition of an antecedent regiment's service in the West Indies in the 1700's where being poorly supplied they resorted to mending their uniforms with sacking.

I think I would be looking for a bronze Officer's Service Dress RAMC badge. Possibly even just to compliment the S. Staffs if you felt that was still the way to go.

Mark
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 16-02-21, 08:03 PM
dpast32 dpast32 is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 20
Default

THANKS Mark, I appreciate all the information ! For without it, I would have probably made what may have been a costly mistake. And honestly, as an assigned / attached Medical Corps Officer, he would have most likely worn the RAMC Badge anyway, if in fact he was wearing British insignia to begin with. Now that I've started to actually think about it, he may have been required to wear U.S. insignia by regulations ? One way or another though, I still feel adding an RAMC Cap Badge to his display is totally appropriate. THANKS AGAIN

Best, dpast32
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 16-02-21, 08:18 PM
magpie's Avatar
magpie magpie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 1,622
Default

If you give his name someone may try and find out about him as they like this sort of challenge , you never know you may find out something you don't already know.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 16-02-21, 09:52 PM
dpast32 dpast32 is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 20
Default

THANK YOU Magpie, I definitely appreciate the offer !! I also included the above Link in the event that anyone might be interested enough to look into it. Pretty much everything I've learned so far has been posted there. I initially proved to be somewhat complicated, due to his being an American, but eventually, through. the kind assistance of others at the GMIC Forum, I managed to learn quite a lot. His name was; 1st Lieutenant Albert Orville Raymond, of Brockton, Massachusetts, USA. ( 1889 - 1955 ) He arrived in the U.K. during February 1917, & didn't return home until 1919. In addition to the M.C., he also qualified for the BWM, as verified by his WW1 M.I.C. at the PRO. Honestly, if you're in any way interested, you really should just Link to my Post on him, as that's the 'mother load' so to speak. PLEASE do let me know your impressions on this, I'll deeply appreciate it. Take care,

Best, dpast32

Last edited by dpast32; 16-02-21 at 10:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 17-02-21, 04:05 PM
High Wood's Avatar
High Wood High Wood is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,647
Default

Medal Index Card.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg raymond.jpg (61.4 KB, 35 views)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 17-02-21, 05:36 PM
dpast32 dpast32 is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 20
Default

THANKS YOU 'High Wood', I appreciate it ! I've managed to document his WW1 era service in detail, of which I was very pleased. This was my very first M.C., & with it being to an American makes it even more intriguing. My first collecting love has always been British awards, although I've backed off them somewhat to focus on local awards to my native State of Rhode Island. Every once in a while I get truly lucky & locate a British Decoration awarded to an American from Rhode Island, now that is indeed unusual !! This may not be the proper venue to discuss such things, but suffice to say that it's an extremely rare WW2 era, Geo. VI M.M., presented to a G.I. was was cut off behind German Lines during the Ardennes Campaign. He 'won' it for his actions on Christmas Day 1944 ! I've kept an early WW1 M.M. to a Canadian Lewis Gun Team L/Cpl.who remained in place in an effort to allow the balance of his Battalion to pull back during the St. Eloi Craters fiasco. So, as you can see, I truly love my U.K. / Commonwealth awards !!

Best, dpast32
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 20-02-21, 08:48 PM
dpast32 dpast32 is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 20
Default Confirm If Early, 'Possible' WW1 Manufacture ?

Hello Folks, After much searching, I 'may' have stumbled across an RAMC example which just might satisfy my needs ? If anyone has a minute to lend their opinion as to whether this particular Badge will fill the bill, so to speak, I'll very much appreciate it. THANKS

Regards, Dom P. / dpast32@aol.com
Attached Images
File Type: jpg s-l1600 (4).jpg (56.3 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg s-l1600 (3).jpg (54.5 KB, 17 views)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 20-02-21, 10:55 PM
leigh kitchen's Avatar
leigh kitchen leigh kitchen is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,988
Default

It's an other ranks (enlisted mans) example a collar badge (an early cap badge?).
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:30 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.