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  #16  
Old 02-03-21, 09:15 AM
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KLR KLR is offline
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I see that it was over ten years that we were looking at this!

RACD stands for Royal Army Clothing Department, though they are usually known as ACD.
There are 21 ledgers listing badges, boots, knives and forks and hundreds of other militarry items at TNA WO/359/ vols 1 to whatever it was).
The first volume was written (yes, handwritten by army clerks) in 1855 and the last one was 1939.
For examples, badges were given a full date (ie when sealed) and gave the Pattern number and then year eg 4362A/1896 - cap, collar ST etc

The Pattern cards discussed above, most now are in the IWM and the NAM (largest collection), other ones were dispersed into the market. Quite often they have makers names on the back.

In 1938 the Ministry of Supplies took over the authorisation etc up to 1946. There are two fat ledgers of badges at TNA of Pattern numbers and who made them! There is also a ledger of plastic badges
(I have the accession numbers somewhere, I'll add it later



I have a list of infy cap badges Pattern numbers - painstaking assembled, In my 1914 Infy collection I only use ACD Patt numbers - and for my KLR collection.
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  #17  
Old 02-03-21, 01:49 PM
Solent Solent is offline
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Default Where to next

I have a GVR badge (K&K page 268 - 269 ref image 1054) that is claimed to be that of the MPSC, however it is not accepted by the MPSC Association so prove is required one way or another with statements like the “K&K is wrong again”
Do we have a100% correct catalog showing the cap badges that can not be disclaimed or do we have a way of validation.

I have tried NAM (although it is on the online catalogue as MPSC they have no prove that it is) - IVM- National Archives - Military Association, no one knows for sure if it is or not so the only prove I need is to located the share a outs of or obtain an image of the sealed Patterns !

Can any body help me validate this badge with documented evidence.
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  #18  
Old 03-03-21, 08:55 AM
Solent Solent is offline
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Default 21 Ledgers at TNA

Quote:
Originally Posted by KLR View Post
I see that it was over ten years that we were looking at this!

RACD stands for Royal Army Clothing Department, though they are usually known as ACD.
There are 21 ledgers listing badges, boots, knives and forks and hundreds of other militarry items at TNA WO/359/ vols 1 to whatever it was).
The first volume was written (yes, handwritten by army clerks) in 1855 and the last one was 1939.
For examples, badges were given a full date (ie when sealed) and gave the Pattern number and then year eg 4362A/1896 - cap, collar ST etc

The Pattern cards discussed above, most now are in the IWM and the NAM (largest collection), other ones were dispersed into the market. Quite often they have makers names on the back.

In 1938 the Ministry of Supplies took over the authorisation etc up to 1946. There are two fat ledgers of badges at TNA of Pattern numbers and who made them! There is also a ledger of plastic badges
(I have the accession numbers somewhere, I'll add it later



I have a list of infy cap badges Pattern numbers - painstaking assembled, In my 1914 Infy collection I only use ACD Patt numbers - and for my KLR collection.
KLR
You information and knowledge is brilliant and I have contacted the TNA as an enquiry to obtain a price for a copy of all 21 Ledgers.
I will update you on the response and thank you again for shearing your knowledge.
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  #19  
Old 03-03-21, 09:03 AM
Solent Solent is offline
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Default Contact at DIDCOT

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Originally Posted by 54Bty View Post
Current sealed patterns are held by the Clothing IPT at Didcot. A master of each obsolete pattern was kept in an archive at Didcot most of these were destroyed in a fire. A second master was sent to the NAM and until recently still were, storage of these patterns is a problem for everyone. The remainder are then offered to the respective museum and the rest, if any, are sold off.

It is not just badges that have master and standard sealed patterns every item has one. Once the five masters and ten standards have been sellected they are kept apart, with only the standards being used for the manufacture of the item.

The pattern will not help with how many were made or how many were issued; they record the following information; pattern number, catalogue number and later the NSN, the catalogue description of the item, the authority file number for the item, the date it was sealed, some times the signature of the person responsible for the pattern and on the back who made them and when. Not all this information is on every card or label, again not every badge gets a sealed pattern if a previous pattern exists it is sometime marked 'to guide for anodised aluminium Cat No' or 'Crown to be St. Edward's. Some of the older Master Patterns have a prototype label that also records the date it was approved by; The Chief Inspector of Clothing, the user, and also for production, the prototype authority (file reference),and proposed designation.

The badge is fixed to the card by a piece of cloth tape which is passed through the card and SEALED on the back with wax and the seal of the Chief Inspector with the shield from the board or ordnance or the Royal Arms. For those of us who have a badge with a hole in the end of the shank or near the top of the shank, then we have a badge that has been made exactly to the pattern, as the hole is for the cloth tape or it is an obsolete pattern. On the more recent patterns the information is on a label and the item secured to it by nylon cord and an MoD metal seal.

Here is an example of a 'Standard Pattern'.

54Bty your knowledge is first class and I found vary valuable to myself and I noted KLR as well.
Could you shear the actual location in DIDCOT so that I may contact them please.
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  #20  
Old 03-03-21, 11:06 AM
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54Bty 54Bty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solent View Post
Could you shear the actual location in DIDCOT so that I may contact them please.
Dicot closed many years back. However if the items you are after are no longer in service they will have been disposed of to the various organisations previously mentioned.

Marc
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  #21  
Old 03-03-21, 12:52 PM
Solent Solent is offline
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Default Back to square 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by 54Bty View Post
Dicot closed many years back. However if the items you are after are no longer in service they will have been disposed of to the various organisations previously mentioned.

Marc
Hi 54 Bty.
Thanks for that info I am still impressed with you depth of knowledge. Some how in this world of logic there must be an official record of all cap badges awarded to HMForces.

54 Bty how can I validate this? Any ideas

Mike
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  #22  
Old 03-03-21, 03:11 PM
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grey_green_acorn grey_green_acorn is offline
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Mike,
Another potential issue is that even if you find a sealed pattern card it may only show a description of the badge such as ‘Royal Cipher of King George Vth below a Tudor Crown all in gilding metal”. It may not show that the badge had a variety of end users including (possibly) the MPSC, Royal Defence Corps, Barrack Wardens etc. I think a search for photographic evidence of the badge in wear by an MPSC NCO of the right period would be better evidence.

Tim
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  #23  
Old 16-03-21, 09:21 AM
Solent Solent is offline
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Default TNA

Quote:
Originally Posted by KLR View Post
I see that it was over ten years that we were looking at this!

RACD stands for Royal Army Clothing Department, though they are usually known as ACD.
There are 21 ledgers listing badges, boots, knives and forks and hundreds of other militarry items at TNA WO/359/ vols 1 to whatever it was).
The first volume was written (yes, handwritten by army clerks) in 1855 and the last one was 1939.
For examples, badges were given a full date (ie when sealed) and gave the Pattern number and then year eg 4362A/1896 - cap, collar ST etc

The Pattern cards discussed above, most now are in the IWM and the NAM (largest collection), other ones were dispersed into the market. Quite often they have makers names on the back.

In 1938 the Ministry of Supplies took over the authorisation etc up to 1946. There are two fat ledgers of badges at TNA of Pattern numbers and who made them! There is also a ledger of plastic badges
(I have the accession numbers somewhere, I'll add it later



I have a list of infy cap badges Pattern numbers - painstaking assembled, In my 1914 Infy collection I only use ACD Patt numbers - and for my KLR collection.
KLR
Could you please enlarge on the two fat files you referred to a move so they could be identified as per the return from TNA below.
“hough you have mentioned ‘that there are two fat ledgers of badges at TNA of Pattern numbers and who made them’, unfortunately without the reference of these documents it is difficult to ascertain which document series to look for. “
Mike
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