British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > Common Forums > Reproductions, Restrikes, Fakes, Forgeries, and Copies

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 16-02-21, 01:26 PM
Frank Kelley's Avatar
Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 7,024
Default

May I ask how you know the badge in the original post does not have a sweat hole?


Quote:
Originally Posted by High Wood View Post
To throw a spanner in the works I would not want the particular badge under discussion in my collection. As the Leinster Regiment was disbanded in 1922 there should be no need to manufacture Leinster Regiment badges after that date.

Therefore, I would expect any Leinster Regiment cap badge to have the characteristics of badges using the construction methods of the time. We are all aware that brazing methods used at the time had the capacity for the two pieces being brazed to slip out of position due to the heat and gases created in the process. Hence the use of sweat holes to allow the gases to escape.

My understanding is that later brazing techniques did away with the need for sweat holes and the extra manufacturing costs involved. We have all seen cap badges whose design did not change between 1902 and 1952 with both sweat holes and without sweat holes, and my contention is that those with sweat holes are the earlier badges.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 16-02-21, 01:35 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 2,977
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by High Wood View Post
Mark,

I am happy to debate, as it is what makes this forum so interesting.

However, I am slightly confused by your mention of a 1916 Economy Issue badge, as I was referring to the badge mention in Alan's original post.

I am also unsure as to why a badge manufacturer who had previously manufactured Leinster Regiment cap badge would resort to using a Welsh Regiment cap badge as the basis for making a Leinster Regiment E.I. badge.

Simon
I don’t really think there is a debate.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

This ‘curly scroll’ design is pictured in both KK and Gaylor. I strongly believe that like the East Surrey’s, Northants, Suffolks, tagged on scroll RDF and a slew of other badges bearing design mistakes or anomalies it is a WW1 made oddity.

Obviously if you want a primary source or picture of it in wear then fair enough I don’t think there is one yet. But like the above badges there is no SP instructing the change.

The braze hole question has been well discussed before I would suggest searching Lambourne and Tiptaft WW1 badges to see they were not always used.

The badge highlighted in post #1 is found both with and without braze holes from the same die.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 16-02-21, 01:49 PM
High Wood's Avatar
High Wood High Wood is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,647
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
May I ask how you know the badge in the original post does not have a sweat hole?
I believe that genuine Leinster Regiment cap badges had a one piece white metal part with two overlays in the form of a title scroll and a crown. The badge shown has an entirely different construction with a separate scroll attached by two tabs. There may be a sweat hole behind the crown but my bet is that there isn't. I am happy to change my opinion if someone can provide photographic evidence.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 16-02-21, 02:29 PM
dubaiguy's Avatar
dubaiguy dubaiguy is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 717
Default

Hi Simon
Yeah, I tried to avoid using the term Economy Issue as I felt that would just conjure up a vision of an all gm badge. I used 'economy measure' instead and hoped you would see it as just another effort to save time and cost during the war effort. The all brass badge wasn't just the only economy drive in badge production and as my knowledge grows I am seeing more and more badge anomalies, not just the ones Luke mentioned, but also where old dies with Victorian crowns were used.

Perhaps nobody can change your mind and of course without photographic evidence your stance is quite reasonable. However, all I can say is that most badge books such as KK include it and of course the more responsible militaria auction houses such as Bosleys sell it as an economy 'measure'. They are also quite rare (or at least I haven't personally seen many), so if indeed a fake, the fakers didn't produce many. Ebay isn't overwhelmed with them as it is with the other myriad fakes and indeed the one in post 1 is the only one I've personally seen on there.

The whole issue of mass produced WWI badges is becoming a very interesting and consuming topic as some members on here use their forensic skills to expand our knowledge.
Cheers
Mark

Last edited by dubaiguy; 16-02-21 at 02:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 16-02-21, 02:55 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 2,977
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by High Wood View Post
I believe that genuine Leinster Regiment cap badges had a one piece white metal part with two overlays in the form of a title scroll and a crown. The badge shown has an entirely different construction with a separate scroll attached by two tabs. There may be a sweat hole behind the crown but my bet is that there isn't. I am happy to change my opinion if someone can provide photographic evidence.
That’s fine but very much I feel a personal decision and stance. To my knowledge there are no pictures of double scroll Nelly’s, any of the country or cavalry HMRR badges or RND MGC in wear.

The ‘curly scroll’ Leinster bears striking resemblance to the below 3DG and 10H badges.

Whilst I’ve not compared them in detail yet it is something on my to-do-list. Like these Leinsters the quality in strike and flaws present can vary enormously making fine detailed comparisons harder.

However, the coronet’s jewels, reverse scroll impressions and even the sliders found on all three show commonality from examples I’ve seen.

Both 3DG and 10H badges feature in Wilkinson, the 3rd DG of this type is shown in KK so I don’t doubt their provenance.

I recently purchased an example of each as WW1 variants and curios. I’ve seen examples with braze holes and others without.

From a manufacturing perspective if you were already making the below badges and took on a contract for a Leinster badge it would be an expedient, economical and financially attractive proposition to not cut a whole new die but manufacture a tag on scroll.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 16-02-21, 03:15 PM
High Wood's Avatar
High Wood High Wood is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,647
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
I don’t really think there is a debate.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

This ‘curly scroll’ design is pictured in both KK and Gaylor. I strongly believe that like the East Surrey’s, Northants, Suffolks, tagged on scroll RDF and a slew of other badges bearing design mistakes or anomalies it is a WW1 made oddity.

Obviously if you want a primary source or picture of it in wear then fair enough I don’t think there is one yet. But like the above badges there is no SP instructing the change.

The braze hole question has been well discussed before I would suggest searching Lambourne and Tiptaft WW1 badges to see they were not always used.

The badge highlighted in post #1 is found both with and without braze holes from the same die.
I am open to being persuaded to change my opinion if there is evidence of the badge being worn and I also accept the argument that there are manufacturer's variations in cap badge production.

Is there documentary evidence that orders for Leinster Regiment badges were placed with Lambourne and, or, Tiptaft.

Whilst I have respect for both K&K and Gaylor, neither are infallible.

With regard to badge dealers, it is in their interest to promote these badges as genuine and they may well be right in this case, but where is the evidence?

I do not like that the badge does not confirm to the designated pattern, particularly with regard to the tips of the shaft of the feathers being in a different metal to the rest of the plumes.

I equally do not understand how this pattern is "labour saving" as suggested by another poster, as it has to be brazed together at three points instead of at two points with the original badge.

If the Leinster Regiment had continued to exist with the same cap badge into WW2, I would accept that there may well have been construction modifications as with many other regimental cap badges. However, they were a relatively small regiment having fewer service battalions than other regiments and they were disbanded in 1922. I would question the need for a high number of cap badges to be ordered for them compared with larger regiments.

Like all of the other disbanded Irish Regiments, their badges are highly sought after and subsequently frequently copied.

I have a few photographs of Leinster Regiment soldiers in my collection, and whilst portrait photographs are often unclear with regard to the badges being worn, and given that photographs of Leinster Regiment soldiers are even rarer than Leinster Regiment cap badges, I have not seen any evidence that the cap badge under discussion was ever worn. I am of course happy to be proved wrong.

In every one of the photographs below, the plumes are of one piece construction with two overlays.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Leinster Cap 007.jpg (52.1 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg Leinster Cap 008.jpg (51.8 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg Leinster Cap 009.jpg (57.9 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg Leinster Cap 010.jpg (37.5 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg Leinster Cap 012.JPG (51.7 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg Leinster Cap 019.jpg (65.1 KB, 5 views)
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 16-02-21, 04:01 PM
dubaiguy's Avatar
dubaiguy dubaiguy is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 717
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
Thatís fine but very much I feel a personal decision and stance. To my knowledge there are no pictures of double scroll Nellyís, any of the country or cavalry HMRR badges or RND MGC in wear.

The Ďcurly scrollí Leinster bears striking resemblance to the below 3DG and 10H badges.

Whilst Iíve not compared them in detail yet it is something on my to-do-list. Like these Leinsters the quality in strike and flaws present can vary enormously making fine detailed comparisons harder.

However, the coronetís jewels, reverse scroll impressions and even the sliders found on all three show commonality from examples Iíve seen.

Both 3DG and 10H badges feature in Wilkinson, the 3rd DG of this type is shown in KK so I donít doubt their provenance.

I recently purchased an example of each as WW1 variants and curios. Iíve seen examples with braze holes and others without.

From a manufacturing perspective if you were already making the below badges and took on a contract for a Leinster badge it would be an expedient, economical and financially attractive proposition to not cut a whole new die but manufacture a tag on scroll.
The round top 3 Dragoon Guards and the 'Leinster' do appear to have a similar die-cast bottom scroll with a lip at the top of the rear of about a mm. I wasn't sure, but I did think that the round top 3 was a war expedient too as it's a bit 'nasty' if you know what I mean - am I right though? I show them together with the Welsh and 10th Hussars. All the coronets on mine are slightly different, with the 10th having vertical line detail about the jewel band - which the strike you show doesn't have.

I'll look forward to reading your conclusions when you get round to your to-do-list.
Mark
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_1752[1].jpg (77.4 KB, 34 views)
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 16-02-21, 04:16 PM
High Wood's Avatar
High Wood High Wood is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,647
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
From a manufacturing perspective if you were already making the below badges and took on a contract for a Leinster badge it would be an expedient, economical and financially attractive proposition to not cut a whole new die but manufacture a tag on scroll.
Cutting a new die really shouldn't be a problem for a military badge production company as presumably they employ professional, highly skilled die cutters and pattern makers.

If, on the other hand, you were a dodgy dealer knocking out fake badges, using the plumes from one particular badge to make several other badges and selling them as "manufacturer's variants", that indeed would be an expedient, economical, and financially attractive proposition.

As many of these badges were knocked out in the 1970s, they have been around long enough to have acquired both patina and the much vaunted provenance that it came from an old collection.

Caveat emptor.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 16-02-21, 05:33 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 2,977
Default

I could spend a lot of time explaining and offering comparisons and other points on manufacture however having done that recently in a Lambourne thread and bashed my head off the wall it’s ultimately pointless and not an experience I care to repeat wasting my time when there’s enough relevant information out there if ultimately the only proof that will satisfy you is a photo.

I wasn’t proposing the badge is made by Lambourne or Tiptaft. The latter made very good quality badges so it certainly isn’t then and the former as you know had a bespoke die which you have an example of and also very unique feathers. There were a great many manufacturer in WW1 as inspection of Board of Trade Labour Gazette 1914-19 shows.

None of the pictures you show of Leinsters show a 1916 all GM badge being worn yet you show an example as part of your argument? There are many cases of badges sealed not being issued or worn. So does it exist? No photo yet... Cue twilight zone music.

If these were knocked out in the 1970s then Hugh King and Gaylor would have bought them brand new. I give both more credit than that.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 16-02-21, 06:24 PM
High Wood's Avatar
High Wood High Wood is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,647
Default

The fact still remains that there was an official sealed pattern cap badge for O.R.s which was super ceded by the 1916 E.I. badge.

The Leinster Regiment had two regular battalions, a reserve battalion, two extra reserve battalions, two service battalions and no territorial battalions during the Great War, why did they need a third "economy" three part badge?

I used the photographs of 1916 E.I. badges to show that the cap badge in question was not the "standard" E.I. badge.

As for potential makers, it was you that mentioned both Lambourne and Tiptaft.

My understanding is that there are extant War Office lists of manufactures who were given contracts of each type of badge and the amount to be manufactured. Are there no surviving lists that show who had the Leinster Regiment contract?

As to the fake badges being made in the 1970's, Hugh King was known to have been given many examples of fake badges and I believe he also kept a rogue's gallery of fake badges, as many collector's do. No one is suggesting that he bought it from new and, I do not believe that he never acquired another military badge after 31st December 1979.

K&K do not go into great descriptive length regarding the two types of Leinster Regiment cap badges that they have illustrations of.

The Prince of Wales's Leinster Regiment (Royal Canadians)

1) The Prince of Wales's plumes, coronet and motto. At the base a scroll inscribed The Leinster. Coronet and title scroll in gilding-metal. Plumes and motto in white metal. (Fig.699).

2). As above, but with different form of coronet. (Fig. 700).

Gaylor, seems even less sure of himself regarding the cap badge with the separate scroll, which incidentally, is the only example that he illustrates.

"During the First World War it would appear that the plumes used in The Welsh Regiment were utilized so that The Leinster badge is sometimes seen with the more common curved scrolls". Military Badge Collecting. John Gaylor. Revised Edition 1977. Page 48. I would respectfully suggest that they are "more common" because they are copies and not of the sealed pattern.

Please do not waste any more of your time and please mind your head. It really isn't worth it

Best wishes,

Simon.

Last edited by High Wood; 18-02-21 at 09:40 AM. Reason: Adding sources.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-03-21, 07:56 AM
Frank Kelley's Avatar
Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 7,024
Default

So in answer to my original question you are merely speculating, I certainly don't think that I have ever seen a single example without a hole.


Quote:
Originally Posted by High Wood View Post
I believe that genuine Leinster Regiment cap badges had a one piece white metal part with two overlays in the form of a title scroll and a crown. The badge shown has an entirely different construction with a separate scroll attached by two tabs. There may be a sweat hole behind the crown but my bet is that there isn't. I am happy to change my opinion if someone can provide photographic evidence.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-03-21, 09:05 AM
KLR's Avatar
KLR KLR is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,690
Default

The only / first Leinster badge was sealed on 13-02-1897 as Pattern 4492.
BM PoW plumes, with straight straight scrolls.


Yes, in 1916 the WO ordered 10,000 Leinster 'all GM' badges (and we have no reason to deny that they WERE produced). I would have thought that there would be quite a few dies used....
I have about 50 4362A/1896 Pattern OR KLR cap badges; there are 18 dies - all of which I am certain that they are genuine.


I can spot a KLR "copy" a mile off but I have to admit, I know very little about Leinsters!

Last edited by KLR; 03-03-21 at 09:21 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 04-03-21, 07:52 AM
Keith Blakeman's Avatar
Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Staring into space, just wishing I had a desk.
Posts: 2,668
Default

Iíve only just come across this thread.

This example of mine came on a belt of Irish badges, all genuine so Iíve no reason to think this isnít either.

No sweat hole or nib on the plume but a very distinctive slider, Lambourne ?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2DA1F66F-AB27-40C0-BCC7-43872D2A43C6.jpg (62.3 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg A4947B9E-B840-459C-9DE9-A5DB62FA9B97.jpg (65.1 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg 4A0FFD5D-62EF-4BBC-AFEC-D47A63C53FF6.jpg (60.3 KB, 32 views)
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 04-03-21, 09:25 AM
Frank Kelley's Avatar
Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 7,024
Default

It appears to have a small rectangular hole.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman View Post
I’ve only just come across this thread.

This example of mine came on a belt of Irish badges, all genuine so I’ve no reason to think this isn’t either.

No sweat hole or nib on the plume but a very distinctive slider, Lambourne ?
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04-03-21, 04:08 PM
Keith Blakeman's Avatar
Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Staring into space, just wishing I had a desk.
Posts: 2,668
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
It appears to have a small rectangular hole.
Trust me it doesnít.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 60A2B32F-B0EE-44BA-BD0F-C08F346E6E44.jpg (55.6 KB, 36 views)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:56 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.