W/M versions of B/M ~ G/M Badges

[Jelly Terror]

Anyone who has looked in on the thread concerning the stamp marks to the rear of badges with overlaid scrolls (here) may have caught the last three or so posts concerning all-W/M badges. I hope I will be forgiven for deciding to fish out the subject matter of those particular posts for scrutiny within its own thread here.

Here is a theory regarding the all-W/M Norfolk Regiment badge (first badge shown in this post by Nozzer), which occurred to me after recently reading a passage in Westlake's 'The Territorials 1908-1914'...

A distinction of the TF (because of their Volunteer origins) was that they should have silver or W/M lace and badges in place of any that were gold or G/M in the Regular Army. However, because this might single TF men out as being anything less than as good as Regulars, the practice was not popular with many men/units of the TF.

Since this was seen also as likely to affect recruitment, the WO made provisions in TF regulations for any unit that wanted to, to adopt G/M badges in place of W/M, though permission had to be sought through its county TF Association. Apparently, many units (but not all) applied, and every one that did, was successful in their application.

This may mean that the all-W/M Norfolk Regiment badge, of the type seen in Nozzer's post, was the version originally manufactured and intended for use by Norfolk TF units, and might also explain the W/M or plated badges we see to other TF units, so often attributed to being possibly for bandsmen etc.

In response, Alan O, kindly submitted the following:

Originally Posted by Alan O

A good point. You get the added complexity of units wearing both. Recent examination of 8th Hants show that the TF wore w/m in Number 1 order of dress and black in khaki. This presumably continued until No1 dress was withdrawn. Bandsmen would have retained it when the majority of wearers were in khaki.

That's before you start looking at what was militia w/m or un-named VB Bn badges such as the all w/m Queens' VB badge.

I'd be very interested in members' thoughts on this.

With thanks,

JT

[Peter Brydon]

A very interesting subject, I dont believe that there are hard and fast rules that can be applied to every regiment.

In the case of The Kings Liverpools, the affiliated Liverpool Institute OTC wore the Kings badge but in all white metal.All white metal badges also worn by the 7th Kings.

Attached is a picture of a soldier of the 5th Kings wearing what appears to be an all white metal " walking out " badge.

The Liverpool Museum have an example of a Liverpool Irish pre 1922 cap badge ( should be blackened brass ) which has been nickle (?) plated,the use of which can only be guessed at.

P.B.

[Peter Brydon]

I should have added that an all white metal Kings cap badge with lugs north and south was used as the Liverpool Scottish other ranks sporran badge.

Whilst the situation might have been different in war time , I am not convinced that generally Territorials ( especially in what the war office described as "class corps " * ) would have wanted to be mistaken for regular soldiers.

P.B.


* Helen McCartney " Citizen Soldiers" page 20

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Peter Brydon

I should have added that an all white metal Kings cap badge with lugs north and south was used as the Liverpool Scottish other ranks sporran badge.

Whilst the situation might have been different in war time , I am not convinced that generally Territorials ( especially in what the war office described as "class corps " * ) would have wanted to be mistaken for regular soldiers.

P.B.


* Helen McCartney " Citizen Soldiers" page 20

Thanks for these posts, Peter.

Perhaps what Westlake is saying, is that the TF, rather than wishing to be 'mistaken' for the Regular Army, did not wish to be viewed as 'less than' or inferior to, if you see what I mean? These all-W/M badges are frequently attributed to having been for bandsmen, walking out dress, etc., many of which undoubtedly were.

I'd be interested to see any archives relating to which units did, and which did not, apply to their county TF Associations for a change of badge.

JT

[Hoot]

If the TF were given that option then that might explain why the white metal badges were never that common. Even for an outfit as large as the ASC/RASC whose TF/TA were, supposedly, issued with white metal badges up until WW2, they were thin on the ground.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Hoot

If the TF were given that option then that might explain why the white metal badges were never that common. Even for an outfit as large as the ASC/RASC whose TF/TA were, supposedly, issued with white metal badges up until WW2, they were thin on the ground.

Whereas by contrast, the variation in constituent metals and finishes of badges for such units as the Poplar & Stepney Rifles, are seemingly abundant. As K&K states:

'In blackened-brass, white-metal and gilding-metal' (KK1847)







Though it has to be said, the all-W/M variants are not quite as common as the other two.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

Anyone who has looked in on the thread concerning the stamp marks to the rear of badges with overlaid scrolls (here) may have caught the last three or so posts concerning all-W/M badges. I hope I will be forgiven for deciding to fish out the subject matter of those particular posts for scrutiny within its own thread here.

Here is a theory regarding the all-W/M Norfolk Regiment badge (first badge shown in this post by Nozzer), which occurred to me after recently reading a passage in Westlake's 'The Territorials 1908-1914'...

A distinction of the TF (because of their Volunteer origins) was that they should have silver or W/M lace and badges in place of any that were gold or G/M in the Regular Army. However, because this might single TF men out as being anything less than as good as Regulars, the practice was not popular with many men/units of the TF.

Since this was seen also as likely to affect recruitment, the WO made provisions in TF regulations for any unit that wanted to, to adopt G/M badges in place of W/M, though permission had to be sought through its county TF Association. Apparently, many units (but not all) applied, and every one that did, was successful in their application.

This may mean that the all-W/M Norfolk Regiment badge, of the type seen in Nozzer's post, was the version originally manufactured and intended for use by Norfolk TF units, and might also explain the W/M or plated badges we see to other TF units, so often attributed to being possibly for bandsmen etc.

In response, Alan O, kindly submitted the following:



I'd be very interested in members' thoughts on this.

With thanks,

JT

JT,

Since you posted this I have seen all w/m 2VB Norfolks and 3 VB badges.

The IWM holds a 1st VB badge but while there is no picture the description is clear enough: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30076146.

In short the all w/m Norfolk badge was probably used by the pre-1908 militia bn and possibly post 1908 by the TF in walking out dress.

Alan

[KLR]

As far as the KLR was concerned, the W Lancs T Assoc specifically noted (in 1908) that some of their units wore WM 'walking out' badges. There was specific data on the 5th Bn but uncertainty about the others - though as Peter noted the 8th Bn seemed to have one.


These WM badges seem to have been abandoned in 1914 - unsurprisingly ! When the provision of TF badges was taken over by the WO (RACD) in 1915 it provided a list of what they would provide - but there was a note at the bottom saying that some had been left out and that they would have to wear regular badges. One such casualty was the WM badge of the 7/Kings.


The interesting thing about the 5/Kings is that they were given a new badge by the RACD in 1921 (Patt 3510/1921) - in WM !!!!


PS - in response to Alan's post - the cap badge of the 6VB KLR - was produced in both GM and in WM - both definitely genuine and appear to be from the same die. (There is another WM version from a different die)

[Nozzer]

Originally Posted by Alan O

JT,

Since you posted this I have seen all w/m 2VB Norfolks and 3 VB badges.

The IWM holds a 1st VB badge but while there is no picture the description is clear enough: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30076146.

In short the all w/m Norfolk badge was probably used by the pre-1908 militia bn and possibly post 1908 by the TF in walking out dress.

Alan

I looked at his post earlier whilst at the office and was going to comment when I got home, but the content has changed, so no point now. However, you mention 2VB and 3VB and I understand their was a 4VB also? I will add that the 3VB is a rare beast indeed, but the 1VB is almost as rare as unicorn doings.

[Alan O]

There is a picture of the 4VB on the forum.

I can only assume that he scarcity of these badges has something to do with the badge itself only being worn for a coupe of years prior to 1908. Possibly the Norfolk VBs were slow to convert to peaked caps and retained side caps, slouch hats or even glengarries long after the Regular Bns had adopted the full sized badges on 'Brodricks' and peaked caps.

Alan

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by KLR

As far as the KLR was concerned, the W Lancs T Assoc specifically noted (in 1908) that some of their units wore WM 'walking out' badges. There was specific data on the 5th Bn but uncertainty about the others - though as Peter noted the 8th Bn seemed to have one.


These WM badges seem to have been abandoned in 1914 - unsurprisingly ! When the provision of TF badges was taken over by the WO (RACD) in 1915 it provided a list of what they would provide - but there was a note at the bottom saying that some had been left out and that they would have to wear regular badges. One such casualty was the WM badge of the 7/Kings.


The interesting thing about the 5/Kings is that they were given a new badge by the RACD in 1921 (Patt 3510/1921) - in WM !!!!


PS - in response to Alan's post - the cap badge of the 6VB KLR - was produced in both GM and in WM - both definitely genuine and appear to be from the same die. (There is another WM version from a different die)

Originally Posted by Nozzer

I looked at his post earlier whilst at the office and was going to comment when I got home, but the content has changed, so no point now. However, you mention 2VB and 3VB and I understand their was a 4VB also? I will add that the 3VB is a rare beast indeed, but the 1VB is almost as rare as unicorn doings.

Originally Posted by Alan O

There is a picture of the 4VB on the forum.

I can only assume that he scarcity of these badges has something to do with the badge itself only being worn for a coupe of years prior to 1908. Possibly the Norfolk VBs were slow to convert to peaked caps and retained side caps, slouch hats or even glengarries long after the Regular Bns had adopted the full sized badges on 'Brodricks' and peaked caps.

Alan

Thanks for these posts, gents. As per one of the forum's fave mantras: never say 'never'.