Spurious Gaunt London Plates on RND badges

[Alan O]

Mine cost £10 which is a fair price. Similair Kings variants go for that price and even adding a premium for the Regualr bn bespoke design I could not ask £55 and keep a straight face. About £20 would be the upper limit. There is a 'bubble' growing here and soon enough any specialist collector will have one at which point the price must drop as run of the mill collectors will buy one type of Kings badge for £6 and stick to one! the same is happening with 1916 economy prices.

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Mine cost £10 which is a fair price. Similair Kings variants go for that price and even adding a premium for the Regualr bn bespoke design I could not ask £55 and keep a straight face. About £20 would be the upper limit. There is a 'bubble' growing here and soon enough any specialist collector will have one at which point the price must drop as run of the mill collectors will buy one type of Kings badge for £6 and stick to one! the same is happening with 1916 economy prices.

I only got one recently after a long time of looking and even that has a cut down shank. It's thanks to this forum and in the case of this badge to Peter and Julian that most of us were aware that this is not a makers variation of the post 1926 badge but a genuine earlier 'unapproved' pattern.

Unfortunately not only collectors are members but dealers too.

Pre-forum days you'd probably have picked this one up for a fiver

[Alex Rice]

Andy (and others)
I've been away so have missed this thread up until now, which I have found very interesting and useful... A question about the Gaunt tablets! I have a number of die cast Gaunt bronze OSD badges with the MM stamped into the badge, so why would they suddenly use a tablet on a die cast badge? I can understand them using a tablet on a die struck badge. but not die cast. Can you please explain that?
Thanks in advance. Cheers,
Alex

[KLR]

Two years on and I've just seen this query.
you presumably mean 'die struck' in your second line.
This simplifies the answer; stamping a maker's mark into fairly solid cast bronze would not disfigure the badge. If you did the same on a thin die struck badge it would probably come through to the front of the badge. - hence attaching a tablet instead !
Incidentally, Firmin OSD badges have what looks like a raised tablet on the back as part of the casting - it was then stamped with the maker's name.

[Nobbysr]

having spent many years with different types of brazing and trying to remove the stuff, its a real pain to completely remove with out damaging the plate or the subject especially when one part has a complex shape both items had to pickled, refluxed and re-brazed, unless the metal is thick there is always some distortion . I would guess that the original Gaunt tablet would be quite thin as its easier to heat both the plate and the badge if they are similar thicknesses metal especial to get it looking neat.
Any one who has tried to fit a slider to a badge knows its not easy to get it looking right let a lone fit a tablet in the correct place. It can be done though but I certainly wouldn't waste time on it.

Cheers

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Simon,
I disagree, it looks as though it is still there, but you have the badge! They are often polished smooth, as I believe the War Office stopped makers marking their badges, and it was probably easier to polish them smooth than to remove those already fitted?

The original plates are paper thin, quite often not neatly cut as are the Fake ones! The lettering is often very lightly struck, whereas on the copies it is often very deep. The genuine plates measure 8mm (wide) 3-4mm (high), the Fakes are often larger. The genuine plates have at least two layouts to the Font, on one the J.R.GAUNT and LONDON the same length and sit neatly above each other on the other style the LONDON is again below but slightly narrower and sits justified. On the Fake plates, which are often much thicker, the LONDON is wider than the J.R.GAUNT set above it!

Some genuine examples, the RE has been cleaned to aid photography!

Andy

[marybrads]

For what its worth app two years ago a dealer at the Leeds Arms and Armour fair at Pudsey had a full dish of Gaunt oblong makers plates for sale at five pounds each. I have never seen them on sale since or any where else. marybrads.

[Passivate]

Having read this thread and looked at the RND gallery I think you may be about to spoil my day. My recently acquired Nelson RND badge has no Gaunt label and the lugs are at 90 degrees to those shown on Paddy's page.

Assuming the absence of a Gaunt label is not the kiss of death, I also notice that the scroll with "Nelson" in it on my badge has a smooth background and Paddy's appears to have a raised patterned background. Mine also has a few rubbed spots, which I hope are the results of some over zealous matelot rather than some dodgy faker - I choose my spelling carefully.

What does anyone think of this item?

Best

Andrew

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Passivate

Having read this thread and looked at the RND gallery I think you may be about to spoil my day. My recently acquired Nelson RND badge has no Gaunt label and the lugs are at 90 degrees to those shown on Paddy's page.

Assuming the absence of a Gaunt label is not the kiss of death, I also notice that the scroll with "Nelson" in it on my badge has a smooth background and Paddy's appears to have a raised patterned background. Mine also has a few rubbed spots, which I hope are the results of some over zealous matelot rather than some dodgy faker - I choose my spelling carefully.

What does anyone think of this item?

Best

Andrew

Bit late I know but it’s a fake Andrew. Not having a Gaunt plate isn’t a kiss of death though. Your badge is from the fake die sadly.

[Home Guard]

This is a very helpful thread. I do not have any badges with these plates, but have seen them form time to time and now know what to look for - THANK YOU!!!!

Terry

[Luke H]

Fair warning to members and prospective buyers this current eBay listing is a fake with a fake Gaunt plate https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hood-Batt...EAAOSwcLleZrN3

I have contacted the seller regarding this and explained in depth with comparison photos the reasons. The seller tells me the badge itself was from the recent Dix Noonan and Webb auction and catalogued by Dixon Pickup hence I feel he reticence to contact the auction house to return it.

In fairness to the seller he has removed the word ‘original’ from the listing’s title and added to the description that he’s revived an email saying it’s a good copy.

To be clear, this is a fake. There is no doubt.

Whilst many of the badges from the recent DNW sale were genuine and fairly scarce items I did notice some other fakes within the lots. As it seems these are hitting the market now my advice as always would be to buy each badge on its merits rather than who the seller is or which auction house it came from.

[SYDASHURST]

In the 1970's and early 1980's I had a fair number of CEF badges through my hands, all struck during WWI. Things have changed since then.

Canadian badges are now being faked. I recently acquired a Candian Militia badge (genuine) and came across what I think is a fake.

For the interest of the Forum I attach photographs.
Row 1 badges 1 & 3 are of badges for sale by Relic Militaria of P.O.Box 227, Pocklington, Yorkshire. They have a French connection, selling some of the Mazeas collection One is white metal badge, the other one is blackened white metal. Badge 2 is my photograph of the badge I bought. Row 2 Badges 1 & 3 are the sellers photographs, the missing bit ringed. The middle photograph is of the edge where the bit is broken off.

Row 3 is I think a fake. It looks like gilding metal, but claimed to be white metal. The crown is not fully voided. There are differences to badges 1,2 & 3 The faker has added the Gaunt Montreal plaque with rounded corners

At the bottom is the evidence that Gaunt's Montreal Office advertised the 8th R. R. badge, but there is no evidence a plaque was added. The Gaunt leaflet was sourced from British & Commonwealth badge forum.

Other Canadian badges are appearing in the wrong metals. The beauty of CEF's was that many metal finishes were unique to that badge,

http://

[Frank Kelley]

You do encounter Gaunt plates on some of their die cast OSD badges for time to time, I often wondered if it was just down to particular individuals who were tasked with finishing them towards the end of the manufacturing, who might have just liked attaching plates.

Originally Posted by Alex Rice

Andy (and others)
I've been away so have missed this thread up until now, which I have found very interesting and useful... A question about the Gaunt tablets! I have a number of die cast Gaunt bronze OSD badges with the MM stamped into the badge, so why would they suddenly use a tablet on a die cast badge? I can understand them using a tablet on a die struck badge. but not die cast. Can you please explain that?
Thanks in advance. Cheers,
Alex

Originally Posted by KLR

Two years on and I've just seen this query.
you presumably mean 'die struck' in your second line.
This simplifies the answer; stamping a maker's mark into fairly solid cast bronze would not disfigure the badge. If you did the same on a thin die struck badge it would probably come through to the front of the badge. - hence attaching a tablet instead !
Incidentally, Firmin OSD badges have what looks like a raised tablet on the back as part of the casting - it was then stamped with the maker's name.

[3748 Hussar]

Hi Frank

See attached 7th QOH Die cast Bz with Gaunt plate

Regards

Tony C

QUOTE=Frank Kelley;531115]You do encounter Gaunt plates on some of their die cast OSD badges for time to time, I often wondered if it was just down to particular individuals who were tasked with finishing them towards the end of the manufacturing, who might have just liked attaching plates.[/QUOTE]

[Dave67]

Good afternoon - can anyone advise on how to tell fake RND badges including MGC RND badge, or where i can find detailed explanations of differences. Seen a few believe to be original but not 100% sure. Many thanks in advance.

[Alex Rice]

Hi Dave
There are numerous old threads in the RN section about RND badges and spotting fakes which are very informative. Use the search function and I am sure you will find some info. Good luck!
Cheers,
Alex