KDG & Bays Badges/Titles.

[Cardiffbloke]

Hi Guys, Just to announce that anyone needing advice on any King's Dragoon Guards or Queen's Bays badges/titles; I am your man. I have a large collection of both Regiments and my own QDG. So.... any Q's; fire away!
Howard

[Malcolm Davey]

Hello Howard
couple of questions, on the QC Bays version when the wreath meets at the crown is it surposed to be solid or voided like the king's corwn version. And if voided should it have a strenghtening bar like the slidered KC version.

Cheers
Malc

[Rockape]

Howard,

I thought you would appreciate this example I found in a small Brecon shop a few years ago. A cast version of the KDG star 1919-1930 (Linaker & Dine 5.7) 45.1mm high, 38.4mm wide, loops E/W 25mm.

kdg1.jpgkdg1-1.jpg

Garry

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by jochim

Hello Howard
couple of questions, on the QC Bays version when the wreath meets at the crown is it surposed to be solid or voided like the king's corwn version. And if voided should it have a strenghtening bar like the slidered KC version.

Cheers
Malc

Malc,

I have never seen a q/c version with a bar. I have seen lots of copies both voided and solid. I have a large font JR GAUNT LONDON marked one which is solid.

Alan

[Cardiffbloke]

Originally Posted by jochim

Hello Howard
couple of questions, on the QC Bays version when the wreath meets at the crown is it surposed to be solid or voided like the king's corwn version. And if voided should it have a strenghtening bar like the slidered KC version.

Cheers
Malc

Hello Jochim,

In answer to your question; basically there are 3 variations of the St Edwards Crown (post 1956) badge. Catalogue No CB0261, the Tudor Crown badge was replaced by CB2948 the GM St Edwards Crown badge in 1955. This badge was the official issue badge of which The Bays received some early 1956. There is no reinforcement and the wreath points at the crown area are voided as are the lettering of the word Bays, It was worn with a red cloth backing. A Gaunt version (non-issue) of this badge was produced also in GM and is easily distinguished from the former by un-pierced Bays lettering, likewise the wreath points.
Gaunt also produced an AAG version also with un-pierced Bays lettering and wreath points. This badge was included in the CCN of 1953 with Catalogue No CB3005.
As all of these 3 badges were produced just before the Regiment amalgamated with KDG to form QDG in Jan 1959, the reality of the situation was that few members of the Bays save a few recent recruits were actually wearing the AAG badge. Some were wearing the GM version, but most of the Regimental personnel wore their Tudor Crown badges right up to amalgamation.
Hope this is of some use.

Howard

[Cardiffbloke]

Originally Posted by Saddle tree maker

Hi Howard,
Welcome to the forum.
Could you tell me. . .
Have the QDG ever wore the NCOs arm badge in anodised aluminium - I have 3 types - the white metal, the chrome and the silvered patterns, but have yet to find the A/A and if you have one, is there a maker's name stamped on it ?
Also, have you got an original (with brazing holes) 1st KDG star pattern badge, which has had the slider removed and been lugged for use as an arm badge during WW1 and if so, could you please post front and back pictures on this forum ?
Thank you in advance, Nigel.

Hello Nigel

I believe that there was never an AA arm badge produced officially or otherwise for QDG. I only know of the WM, Chromed and Silvered versions. That said; these badges are produced and sold by the Regimental PRI. They are not issued and have to be bought by Full Cpls and above. It may well be that a 'test batch' of AA arm badges may well have been tendered by a manufacturer and then rejected by the PRI. The manufacturer may well have disposed of the badges with some subsequently finding their way to the open collectors market.

Howard

[Cardiffbloke]

Originally Posted by Rockape

Howard,

I thought you would appreciate this example I found in a small Brecon shop a few years ago. A cast version of the KDG star 1919-1930 (Linaker & Dine 5.7) 45.1mm high, 38.4mm wide, loops E/W 25mm.

Attachment 1316Attachment 1317

Garry

Garry

What can i say....... Simply outstanding!

Howard

[Cardiffbloke]

Originally Posted by Saddle tree maker

Thank you Howard.
While I agree that the cast example shown is a fine looking badge, it is not the badge that was used as an arm badge mentioned by Linaker and Dine.
During WW1 all cap badges manufactured for the regiment in the British Isles were die-struck and it was some of these badges that were recalled and the sliders were replaced with lugs.
The loss or damage of a cap badge while serving abroad are the only circumstances for a cast replacement and I am sure this applies to most regiments of the British army.
Cheers, Nigel.

Hi Nigel.

You are partly correct in what you say. However at the start of WW1 KDG were in India as part of the Lucknow C/Bde, 1st Indian C/Div, still wearing the Eagle. The Col of the Regiment requested and was granted permission to change the badge (as the Austrian Imperial Eagle was thought of as an enemy insignia) and the new BM Star and Garter badge was born on 13 April 1915 when the design based on the long held Regt'l Cypher and closely resembling the pattern on the Regimental button was lodged in the Pattern Room. Sealed Pattern No 8381/1915. In fact though,some members of KDG were wearing Eagle badges right up till 1916 (alongside some wearing the Star & Garter badge) because of war supply shortages. There was also a GM version issued in 1916 to speed up production (the BM version taking longer to produce). Sealed Pattern No 8381a/1916 and it was this badge (over 2000 were ordered - all with sliders) which was the predominant (if not the only) badge worn through WW1. NCOs of the KDG wore no Arm badge during the WW1 and it only reappeared when they had returned to India and 'settled down' after the rigours of the trenches. I have pictures of KDG wearing the BM badge in India/Iraq/Afghanistan during 1919 and the early 1920's. It is almost certain that the badge was locally manufactured in India or Iraq and was of a 'cast' construction with loops. Hitherto, the die struck badges, produced in UK had a slider fixing and was unsuitable as an arm badge. A number of slider fixing badges were sent to a manufacturer in 1935 and fitted with loops but these were unlikely to have been used as arm badges as the Regt had already adopted the Crowned Monogram arm badge 1930/31 which they wore right up to 1959.
Therefore..... No Arm Badges after withdrawal of the eagle until well after the end of WW1. First badges produced in theater of Ops India/Iraq and of cast construction. Only badges 'officially' produced with loops well after use of Cap Badge as Arm badge had ceased. Therefore any Die Struck BM badge with loops is either the one produced officially but actually used in the Field Service Cap or locally modified by NCOs themselves to save a bit of cash!
Hope this clears up the confusion.....

Howard

[Cardiffbloke]

Originally Posted by Saddle tree maker

Hi Howard,
Thank you for that.
I always thought it was the die-struck (WW1) cap badge that was modified, but in fact, in light of what you say, it would seem only a cast, lugged version can be realisticly accepted as an arm badge.
This is the reason I joined this forum and I for one don't mind being corrected when I'm wrong.
Cheers, Nigel.

Dear Nigel, I too am here to learn and I'm sure i am not the complete 'oracle' yet.... lol....I'm sure though, that many a KDG Tommy did the 'squaddie' thing and got the welder to clip off the slider and solder on a few lugs.
I attach a pic of a typical fake so you can avoid!! and remember, any Star and Garter badge over 49mm in length is almost certain to be fake as is any GM badge with lugs....

[Cardiffbloke]

Originally Posted by Rockape

Howard,

I thought you would appreciate this example I found in a small Brecon shop a few years ago. A cast version of the KDG star 1919-1930 (Linaker & Dine 5.7) 45.1mm high, 38.4mm wide, loops E/W 25mm.

Garry

Garry

Did you get the 'Private Message' i sent you? It seems not!!

Howard

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by Cardiffbloke

Hello Jochim,

In answer to your question; basically there are 3 variations of the St Edwards Crown (post 1956) badge. Catalogue No CB0261, the Tudor Crown badge was replaced by CB2948 the GM St Edwards Crown badge in 1955. This badge was the official issue badge of which The Bays received some early 1956. There is no reinforcement and the wreath points at the crown area are voided as are the lettering of the word Bays, It was worn with a red cloth backing. A Gaunt version (non-issue) of this badge was produced also in GM and is easily distinguished from the former by un-pierced Bays lettering, likewise the wreath points.


Howard

Howard,

Do you know who made the pierced Q/C version? I presume that it was a slidered badge.

Alan

[Cardiffbloke]

Originally Posted by Alan Owen

Howard,

Do you know who made the pierced Q/C version? I presume that it was a slidered badge.

Alan

Hi Alan

I have no record of who actually made the official issued badge. It is indeed slidered but not reinforced.

Howard

[Alan O]

Howard,

Thanks. Most post war badges tend to be maker marked but there were exceptions.

I enclose a picture of my post37 badge in GM. These seem to be harder to find than the pre37 garter and star.

Alan

[Cardiffbloke]

Originally Posted by Alan Owen

Howard,

Thanks. Most post war badges tend to be maker marked but there were exceptions.

I enclose a picture of my post37 badge in GM. These seem to be harder to find than the pre37 garter and star.

Alan

Hi Alan

I have one of these too and the one issued with EW loops. You probably know that these badges started off life as the 'official' new 1938 patt issue badge of the KDG. They were deposited in the pattern room on 20 Jan 1938 as sealed patterns 11199/1938 and for the GM Collar SP 11200/1938. However the Regiment had long before decided that they would not wear GM badges and had ordered WM variations which the soldiers were compelled to buy from the PRI. The SNCOs and WOs had in fact been wearing the WM example since the Sep of 1937! and the unwashed started wearing them in the Feb of 1938. The Regiment then embarked on a lengthy process of changing the official badge from GM to WM. This took several years eventually WM became the Official KDG issue badge material in 1949!
It is interesting to note that history repeated itself after amalgamation in 1959 when QDG took years to get approval for EW loops instead of a slider on the cap badge.

Howard

[Alan O]

Howard,
I don't suppose you know when the QDG NCOs took to wearing their arm badges in their berets?

Alan