KDG Bandsman's Pagri Badge

[1stTankie]

[QUOTE.But i do have some nice stuff to trade... Cest la Vie [/QUOTE]

Hi Howard

If you don't think that these are "genuine" DIY conversions and you wouldn't want to wear one in your lapel I find it difficult to understand why you would possibly want one??

I jest.

May I suggest you email me with a few options and I will do my best to assuage your lust.

Best wishes

Gordon

PS I don't assuage easily!!!

[Cardiffbloke]

I want it because it's genuine and I like badges that are genuine, particularly ones that have been 'messed around with' by their owners. Just to clarify ; I never said that the clasped badges weren’t arm badges, I have no portal on the past to ask someone; I just thought the fitting would be sloppy and therefore unlikely to have been. But and its a big BUT; If there is one thing I have learned about this badge collecting malarkey is to keep an open mind, especially regarding Cavalry and ESPECIALLY with KDG! I have lots of photographic evidence of badges being worn that have never been mentioned in any of the badge collecting Bibles' including the Late Great David Linaker and my charming mate Gordon Dine's wonderful effort. And when i showed a particular photo of an Edwardian KDG SNCO wearing an arm badge to them; both of them almost fell off their chairs! Insisting I should write a book (which I will) exclusively about KDG/Bays/QDG. So; once again, I won’t die in a ditch over a badge fixing, shame there is no photo!
As for trading, what are you missing? Please be sensible what you have is only an oddity not a silver gilt enamel full size Officer's badge lol.
I’ve been trying to contact you by email. Has it changed as ive received no reply?

[Cardiffbloke]

"Roger your last"........

However, having now spoken to 1st Tankie and Robthereiver offline with new and exciting information, i thought it appropriate to show the new evidence and put this discussion to rest.

The badges in the possession of 1st Tankie are almost certainly pagri badges worn exclusively by members of the KDG Band during their tour of Egypt/India in the mid 30's. The attached photos of the bandsmen 'at play' bear witness to that fact. No other members of the Regt wore pagri badges, just the band; and as everyone knows, the best and most efficient way of securing a badge to a pagri is with a clasped pin. The 2nd pattern arm badge was discontinued in 1930 and replaced with the crowned monogram, so at the time these photos were taken, the new pattern arm badge would already have been worn by Cpl and above. Any notion that the badges could have 'doubled' as arm badges is impossible.
That they could be earlier (1920's) examples of DIY arm badges is of course arguable but in my opinion unlikely as all examples i have of that time including professionally commissioned and 'in theatre' items sport lugs.

What fun that was.....

[CftD]

Originally Posted by 1stTankie

Hi Howard

Good to hear from you; many thanks for your info and opinions.

I'm afraid I don't buy into the "these were modified for wear on plain clothes" syndrome. I have to admit I have never seen photographs of ex-soldiers wearing their badges this way. (this will no doubt produce a flood of examples that have somehow escaped my notice over the years, could even start a new thread) especially the KDGs who had this particular badge forced upon them, continued to ignore the order for as long as possible, and changed back to the eagle as soon as possible. Had they been given a referendum how many would have voted to retain the "Star and Garter", let alone wear it in their lapels?

Nor do I think the pin fastening would necessarily imply a sloppy fitting on the uniform. Done with care they would retain their position very precisely.
Similarly, the fact that the museum doesn't have one to me suggests that the curators in years gone by were not aware of them. There are loads of badges in the collectors' world that museums would love to have.

I rest my case but, as you so rightly say, we may never know.

If by way of exchange you feel you would like to put up the Wew & Co solid silver one I feel I might be persuaded!!

Best wishes

Gordon

Gordon - I'm ging to disagree with your comments for two reasons. Firstly, there is VAST evidence of full-size cap badges being worn on civilian clothes and even as sweetheart brooches - this was not the exclusive province of the collar badge. Secondly, a pinned-on arm badge is a dangerous item - where is the anchorage to the tunic ? I could envisage many a ripped tunic arm due to a pinned-on badge becoming caught on something or other. Firm anchorage with lugs has always been the universal method of fitting - often with a reinforcing backplate. Regards. David

[1stTankie]

David

Thank you for your comments. As always I found them most useful.

Gordon

[CftD]

Supplementary to my last post, I would agree wholeheartedly with the conceept that these are pagri badges - everything points to them being so.

[3748 Hussar]

Hi all ,

I thought I should add add these pic's to the debate on broached Arm badge's, am I the only forum member apart from 1st tankie to have examples in thier collections.

1, 8th Hussar HM Silver This badge illustrated in Cavalry Nco Arm badges by Peter Seaman P 67 Fig 1.

2. 3rd DG Guards

3. 3rd Hussars Rearing horse From the Walter lambert Collection see Cavalry Nco Arm badges Lineker and Dine . P76 19.2.

Due to the size I believe that the 3rd DG Armbadge being worn as a brooch.

Regards

2748 Hussar

[1stTankie]

Hi Mike

I'm not sure how this thread came to be renamed "KDG Bandsman's Pagri Badge?"

Could you elucidate please?

Best wishes

Gordon

[Alan O]

There is an overwrite function on the titles allowing it to be amended for later filing.

[1stTankie]

Alan

Thank you

Gordon

[1stTankie]

Originally Posted by 3748 Hussar

Hi all ,

I thought I should add add these pic's to the debate on broached Arm badge's, am I the only forum member apart from 1st Tankie to have examples in their collections. 2748 Hussar

Hi Hussar

Thank you very much for your post. These examples are really exquisite, both in their content and timing.

I have no reason to doubt that they were worn as Arm badges.

Needless to say I am extremely envious as will, no doubt, lots of other Cavalry collectors

Best wishes

Gordon

(However be warned that it may be assumed that these were worn in the pagri by the regimental bands, if only for filing purposes)

[Cardiffbloke]

Tony

It looks to me (on the photo evidence) that the clasp on the 8H example was a later addition as the solder has obliterated the HM. I cannot imagine a manufacturer doing such a thing! It also looks like there is evidence of other fixings having been present ie lugs; 3 in all, one at the top and two additional solder smudge marks E/W at the edges below the pin. The 3DG badge is very small as is the horse. The argument about whether the KDG Star and Garter 'clasped' badge would have been 'effective' as an arm badge centred around its stability. It is quite a large badge and would quite easily have 'flopped' about on a pin, whereas your two smaller examples would have a much more stable fitting with a clasp because of their diminutive size. Still not willing to die in a ditch over this because we shall never know; but logical and reasoned thought leads me to believe that the KDG examples are more likely to be pagri badges (backed up by irrefutable photo evidence). That your 8H may well have been clasped at a later date and worn as a brooch and the Jury is out on the other two but arm badges they may well be.... Horses for courses springs to mind!

[sketchley kid]

From a practical point of view if I was going to convert a cap badge to an arm badge and it had a tang/slide I would work from that, why go to the bother of a pin and clip?
It would be simple to stop the badge sliding about with a piece of leather or even a backing plate fom a title?

[Cardiffbloke]

Well, it seems the KDG NCOs at that time and since arm badges were introduced up until today found the slider difficult to secure the badge on the arm in a stable fashion. I for one found 3 lugs one at the top and 2 E/W at the bottom perfect. A slider would certainly not be stable enough on the 'moving' arm when marching, working, fighting etc etc....